Maybe, I’ve got a few dudes angry at me on the other thread for pointing out the rape-culture vibes of the original. So, probably gonna get a few more of those throughout the day.
Seeing someone, presumably a significant other, naked has zero rape culture vibes without additional context. The implication was they would rather stay with the person they are attracted to than go to work. Maybe do sexy time stuff too, but it is only about the comparison of staying and going to work.
If you assume anything about what they would do and how they do it if they stay it is something you are adding and not part of the meme.
I haven’t really decided whether I think that meme was rape culture, but I will say that I did find it uncomfortably sexual in relation to an unconscious person. And I feel like you’re really going out of your way to sanitize it after the fact.
At least to me, “seeing (sleeping) partner naked” is not the same as focusing on sexualized parts of their body. Nor is “being attracted to someone”. Further, the implication was not solely that the person would have rather stayed; The meme had a definite sexual note that was entirely unnecessary to communicating that point.
And I feel like you’re really going out of your way to sanitize it after the fact.
I think you are making too much of a connection between the sexy part with the sleeping part instead of the sleeping in while sexy and going to work part. Sure, it could have been changed to just sleeping or just sexy without the obviously exaggerated for comedic effect phrasing but then it would have been a tame and less effective joke.
Seeing a sleeping partner cozy under blankets and not going to work is wholesome. Seeing a sexy partner and not going to work, but with a tame description of the sexiness is tame and not funny. Seeing a sexy partner who doesn’t have to get up while you do AND an exaggerated description of being sexy with a ridiculous phrasing to emphasize that they would rather be having sexy time with their partner than go to work is funny.
The exaggeration is the joke and wouldn’t be as funny if it was tamed down.
I’m not going to write two responses to the same questions, and another person asked it in a much less defensive, angry way. So, you can just read this and see what your issue is:
Okay, so some good questions here that I’m glad to see on Lemmy.
So, objectification is one of those things I think men get more anxious about because they typically have less intuitive, lived experiences to understand where those boundaries ought to be assumed. Objectification is not itself inherently wrong; we are objectified when we have an assigned number for our driver’s license, and we often want to be sexually objectified by our partners, as you pointed out
People tend to be uncomfortable with the reality that the wrongness of objectification is something negotiated, not statically defined with clear lines that you could show in court. In one of my other comments, I said that this element is not necessarily an issue depending on the relationship. Yes, people have those discussions throughout a relationship (ideally), and if this was something established as appropriate, that isn’t much of an issue.
However, this is not two people in a relationship, this is an internet meme whose legibility is dependent on the assumptions and shared values of an audience. So, in that context, the fact that it is expected that so many of you wouldn’t take issue with this (and didn’t) is the problem. Women’s bodies are sexually objectified culturally, which means non-sexual contexts or attributes of their bodies are constructed as sexual, i.e. when men peep on their feet like they’re genetalia publicly, or when nakedness alone is considered sexual, despite that not being the case. Combined with the nuances of negotiated consent and the cultural norms of hetero relationships, that also means many (or most) cishet men do not even think about explicit consent when they’re met with a situation like what is depicted in this meme, like what you just admitted to.
Though this can often lead to harm – like being a bit rapey online and forcing women to see that most men don’t worry about their consent – that doesn’t mean that all men are bad because they were socialized a particular way, since it is something that can be resolved through communication and recognition. That most men, this site included, often react indignantly at the notion that they’re engaging in sexual violence even though they followed the rules, shows us that this is by no means a small issue. When I say “rape culture,” this refers to the prevalent cultural norms like this that, while not normalizing sexual assault explicitly, accept constructions of women, sex, and relationships that are conducive to devaluing women and their ability to give consent; therefore normalizing sexual violence.
So, yes, this is not inherently wrong in the context of an actual relationship with healthy boundaries, communication, and respect, but is harmful in the context of an internet meme that does not consider the possibility of harm in its messaging, and whose audience by and large holds such consideration in contempt as an indictment of their moral character.
Seeing your partner exposed while sleeping and having thoughts about your partner and work is not sexual violence.
Your points are valid about society and objectifying women and everything else and I am saying those things are not inherently part of the meme just because they exist.
Stating that opinion isn’t being defensive or angry. I am calmly posting matter of fact statements and italicised one part of a sentence for emphasis.
orioler25@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Maybe, I’ve got a few dudes angry at me on the other thread for pointing out the rape-culture vibes of the original. So, probably gonna get a few more of those throughout the day.
snooggums@piefed.world 5 weeks ago
Seeing someone, presumably a significant other, naked has zero rape culture vibes without additional context. The implication was they would rather stay with the person they are attracted to than go to work. Maybe do sexy time stuff too, but it is only about the comparison of staying and going to work.
If you assume anything about what they would do and how they do it if they stay it is something you are adding and not part of the meme.
SalmiakDragon@feddit.nu 5 weeks ago
I haven’t really decided whether I think that meme was rape culture, but I will say that I did find it uncomfortably sexual in relation to an unconscious person. And I feel like you’re really going out of your way to sanitize it after the fact.
At least to me, “seeing (sleeping) partner naked” is not the same as focusing on sexualized parts of their body. Nor is “being attracted to someone”. Further, the implication was not solely that the person would have rather stayed; The meme had a definite sexual note that was entirely unnecessary to communicating that point.
snooggums@piefed.world 5 weeks ago
I think you are making too much of a connection between the sexy part with the sleeping part instead of the sleeping in while sexy and going to work part. Sure, it could have been changed to just sleeping or just sexy without the obviously exaggerated for comedic effect phrasing but then it would have been a tame and less effective joke.
Seeing a sleeping partner cozy under blankets and not going to work is wholesome. Seeing a sexy partner and not going to work, but with a tame description of the sexiness is tame and not funny. Seeing a sexy partner who doesn’t have to get up while you do AND an exaggerated description of being sexy with a ridiculous phrasing to emphasize that they would rather be having sexy time with their partner than go to work is funny.
The exaggeration is the joke and wouldn’t be as funny if it was tamed down.
orioler25@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
I’m not going to write two responses to the same questions, and another person asked it in a much less defensive, angry way. So, you can just read this and see what your issue is:
Okay, so some good questions here that I’m glad to see on Lemmy.
So, objectification is one of those things I think men get more anxious about because they typically have less intuitive, lived experiences to understand where those boundaries ought to be assumed. Objectification is not itself inherently wrong; we are objectified when we have an assigned number for our driver’s license, and we often want to be sexually objectified by our partners, as you pointed out
People tend to be uncomfortable with the reality that the wrongness of objectification is something negotiated, not statically defined with clear lines that you could show in court. In one of my other comments, I said that this element is not necessarily an issue depending on the relationship. Yes, people have those discussions throughout a relationship (ideally), and if this was something established as appropriate, that isn’t much of an issue.
However, this is not two people in a relationship, this is an internet meme whose legibility is dependent on the assumptions and shared values of an audience. So, in that context, the fact that it is expected that so many of you wouldn’t take issue with this (and didn’t) is the problem. Women’s bodies are sexually objectified culturally, which means non-sexual contexts or attributes of their bodies are constructed as sexual, i.e. when men peep on their feet like they’re genetalia publicly, or when nakedness alone is considered sexual, despite that not being the case. Combined with the nuances of negotiated consent and the cultural norms of hetero relationships, that also means many (or most) cishet men do not even think about explicit consent when they’re met with a situation like what is depicted in this meme, like what you just admitted to.
Though this can often lead to harm – like being a bit rapey online and forcing women to see that most men don’t worry about their consent – that doesn’t mean that all men are bad because they were socialized a particular way, since it is something that can be resolved through communication and recognition. That most men, this site included, often react indignantly at the notion that they’re engaging in sexual violence even though they followed the rules, shows us that this is by no means a small issue. When I say “rape culture,” this refers to the prevalent cultural norms like this that, while not normalizing sexual assault explicitly, accept constructions of women, sex, and relationships that are conducive to devaluing women and their ability to give consent; therefore normalizing sexual violence.
So, yes, this is not inherently wrong in the context of an actual relationship with healthy boundaries, communication, and respect, but is harmful in the context of an internet meme that does not consider the possibility of harm in its messaging, and whose audience by and large holds such consideration in contempt as an indictment of their moral character.
snooggums@piefed.world 5 weeks ago
objectification =/= rapey
Seeing your partner exposed while sleeping and having thoughts about your partner and work is not sexual violence.
Your points are valid about society and objectifying women and everything else and I am saying those things are not inherently part of the meme just because they exist.
Stating that opinion isn’t being defensive or angry. I am calmly posting matter of fact statements and italicised one part of a sentence for emphasis.