Comment on Not a good sign

• Barley_Man@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  I did not know the history of the term tragedy of the commons. Thanks for educating me on that, I will now reconsider using that specific term in the future. However overgrazing is a real issue historically and still today. Overgrazing in the modern Sahel is a great contributor to the advancing of the savanna for example.

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  • supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Oh definitely, my issue with the concept of the Tragedy Of The Commons is not that shared wealth is not vulnerable but rather that the idea that humans innately cannot function in an environment while preserving and growing a shared commons without some kind of system of authoritarian control and violence actively preserving that shared commons is a deeply political, problematic and scientifically incorrect way of understanding people.

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    • HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      i dunno. the community garden run by the local MS-13 has the weirdest red drip system, but my begonias have never looked better.

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    • partial_accumen@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I would imagine a system you’re suggesting would first have to eliminate scarcity of resources. We certainly have the ability to do that with our technology today but choose not to do so. Wouldn’t it require a turn to benevolence by all involved in the society to achieve that? If so, that doesn’t sound like a likely outcome. What, in your opinion, would it take to escape the Tragedy of Commons that is likely to actually occur?

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      • supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        I would imagine a system you’re suggesting would first have to eliminate scarcity of resources.

        Provide evidence for this claim.

        I understand this has been established as our cultural intuition but it is a near axiomatic assumption that upon examination has very little evidence to support it, whether we look to the natural world or to human societies.

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    • Live_your_lives@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I think you are overselling it’s incorrectness and so horseshoeing back around to being like the people who oversell it’s truthfulness. Yes, the tragedy of the commons is misleading if taken in isolation, but something being misleading does not automatically make it scientifically incorrect. Do you have direct evidence or an argument for why the tragedy of the commons isn’t the most likely outcome if the circumstances just so happen to match the assumptions Hardin made?

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      • supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        I think you are overselling it’s incorrectness and so horseshoeing back around to being like the people who oversell it’s truthfulness.

        I am not.

        Do you have direct evidence or an argument for why the tragedy of the commons isn’t the most likely outcome if the circumstances just so happen to match the assumptions Hardin made?

        Here you go

        boingboing.net/2019/03/07/scientific-fraud.html

        Even before Hardin’s ‘The Tragedy of the Commons’ was published, however, the young political scientist Elinor Ostrom had proven him wrong. While Hardin speculated that the tragedy of the commons could be avoided only through total privatisation or total government control, Ostrom had witnessed groundwater users near her native Los Angeles hammer out a system for sharing their coveted resource. Over the next several decades, as a professor at Indiana University Bloomington, she studied collaborative management systems developed by cattle herders in Switzerland, forest dwellers in Japan, and irrigators in the Philippines. These communities had found ways of both preserving a shared resource – pasture, trees, water – and providing their members with a living. Some had been deftly avoiding the tragedy of the commons for centuries; Ostrom was simply one of the first scientists to pay close attention to their traditions, and analyse how and why they worked.

        The features of successful systems, Ostrom and her colleagues found, include clear boundaries (the ‘community’ doing the managing must be well-defined); reliable monitoring of the shared resource; a reasonable balance of costs and benefits for participants; a predictable process for the fast and fair resolution of conflicts; an escalating series of punishments for cheaters; and good relationships between the community and other layers of authority, from household heads to international institutions.

        aeon.co/…/the-tragedy-of-the-commons-is-a-false-a…

        news.osu.edu/the-tragedy-of-the-commons--minus-th…

        news.cnrs.fr/…/debunking-the-tragedy-of-the-commo…

        landscapewanderer.link/tragedy/

        discardstudies.com/…/the-tragedy-of-the-tragedy-o…

        jacobin.com/…/tragedy-of-the-commons-garrett-hard…

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• zout@fedia.io ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  supersquirrel: "The betrayal of generations from the 20th century against the future quality of life of humanity will be remembered for thousands of years." Also supersquirrel: "I am uninterested in comparing the moral qualities of generations. Humans are humans."

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• HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  so like, people can have both bad ideas and good. i don’t know enough about hardin, but the basic concept is a useful model to get people understanding a basic concept. is it a political narrative? i mean it’s macroeconomics. the entire damn field is politics under a veneer. their best model is barely better than flipping a coin.

  don’t get me started on micro though, that field is just gambling analysis.

  i don’t have a chip on my shoulder or nothin’

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  • canthangmightstain@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    We really need to stop throwing away useful terms and concepts because their progenitors don’t turn out to be role models. Knowledge doesn’t always come from perfect sources. “Tragedy of the Commons” has no basis in race as a concept as I understand it, I don’t see why the guy who coined the term being a racist POS means I should take a moral stance on it.

    … but, you know, fuck that guy.

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