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Comment on Adam Driver Says Kylo Ren’s Original ‘Star Wars’ Arc Got Overhauled: He Was Supposed to Be the ‘Most Committed to the Dark Side’ by the End

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520@kbin.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

It's a mixture of a few things:

the film uses certain tropes really badly. Everyone has said something about the whole "subverting expectations" things, and in some places, it's done well but in others, they pretty much 4th wall break. By the middle of the film, you can basically predict when and how the subversions will take place, ironically defeating the point of this trope, and ruining what could have been epic moments.
certain things flat out make zero sense. The film wants us to believe, literally spelling it out, that Poe is reckless despite his decisions up until this point being pretty good, all things considered, but wants us to consider Holdo a hero despite her causing a panic within her troops by withholding important information, and her plan ending up getting almost all of them killed.
the casino planet side part of the film feels like it should have been cut by 2/3 and it feels like the only reason for its length was so that Disney could make merchandisable figures from the animals.
it's a little too reliant on nostalgia. Or rather, when it does its nostalgia hit, the details in question usually aren't there for any particular reason or used for anything. There are a couple of times when it's done really well, such as when R2 persuades Luke to help Rey by playing Leia's message from A New Hope. But other times it's a random Xwing in the water or a two moons hallucination.

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Skua@kbin.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Poe was portrayed as being really reckless in TFA as well, though. Like his second ever appearance is stealing a star fighter in a prison break, fighting an entire star destroyer with some guy he literally just me, and then crash landing all while acting like he's on a theme park rollercoaster. His first was him intentionally getting captured in order to pull a fast one on a Sith and his entire army. He's usually doing what needs to be done in TFA, but that's because those situations actually required someone to do exactly what he always wants to do: fly straight at it in the fastest thing he can get his hands on and blow a bunch of stuff up. His arc in TLJ was totally in keeping with what we had already seen of him

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- 520@kbin.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  But if his actions are necessary, by definition, that's not recklessness. Recklessness involves a complete disregard for other, better options. If those options don't exist, you can't exactly call him reckless for it.
  
  His actions in the beginning of TLJ actually improve the odds of the Rebellion considerably, even factoring in the loss of their bombers.
  
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  - prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Poe was a pure good aligned Han Solo.
    
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  - Skua@kbin.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    What he did doesn't show that he wasn't reckless just because it was necessary though. I'm saying he clearly wanted to do those things whether they were the right move or not, it's just fortunate for him that they were generally good moves most of the time
    
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    520@kbin.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    But that's the thing, they were good moves at the time. At no point is Poe provided a safer, better option for him to disregard in favour of a risky move. So we don't have the information needed to call him reckless, even if he has no qualms about the risky approach.
    
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TheMongoose@kbin.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

and [Holdo's] plan ending up getting almost all of them killed.

Woah, hang on a second. Holdo's plan would (probably) have worked fine if she hadn't told Poe. It was because he told Finn and Rose over a line he didn't know was secure so he actually also told Benicio Del Toro, who then sold that info to the ~~Discount Empire~~ First Order that everyone died.

And then rather than punish Poe for that, she took responsibility for it, did what she could to save everyone else and sacrificed herself for the cause.

Poe incited a mutiny. Holdo made a command decision about Need To Know. I know who deserves the medal after that all dies down, and it isn't the hotshot that had already been demoted earlier that day for disobeying orders.

You're 100% right about #3. And I can't really disagree with #4 either.

God, I wanted to love this film. I still quite like it, but I can't really bring myself to rewatch it as often as, say Rogue One. I think it's weaker in retrospect after the retcon-fest that was Rise of Skywalker, which is a shame. Rian Johnson had some great ideas that could have reinvigorated the franchise. Instead, it's barely limping on, giving us stuff like Andor as enough of a teaser that we don't just give up on the whole thing.

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