I get what you’re saying, but would you adopt the same stance for example for gambling or drinking alcohol? They’re not necessarily bad per se, it’s the compulsion and the trigger points it evokes for some people where I think it’s completely fine to just accept that for them not doing it at all - even if for a time - might be the correct move.
Comment on Anon makes some changes
SarahValentine@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 day agoSo you understand that the problem isn’t doing the thing, it’s something else, and doing the thing is only bad because of that context. Then you ought to understand that treating the context is the solution, not insisting the person just not do the thing.
hoppolito@mander.xyz 1 day ago
SarahValentine@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 day ago
Comparing a natural behavior to dependency on addictive chemicals is a bit silly. I’m not sure you’re taking this seriously. And before you come back with “masturbation releases chemicals we can form a dependency on”, literally SO many other mundane things have the same effect. Conservatives and fascists always care about this one in particular though, and that’s the real reason we’re talking about it.
hoppolito@mander.xyz 1 day ago
But that’s exactly what I am saying, there’s a wide variety of actions that - on their own - aren’t really harmful if done in moderation. Sure gambling and drinking are more extreme examples, but you yourself agree that these actions ‘release chemicals we can form a dependency on’. So does gambling, so does overeating, so does masturbation. If it’s an issue for the person and they’re not doing it for a while then I also don’t see the use in singling this out in the list of things here. If it helps the person get motivated/be proud and engage positive feedback loops to not do it, why single masturbation out as useless?
Of course, ‘never fapping’ and automagically being a good person is an absurd manosphere grift to push. But if they were following a specific diet which in itself also doesn’t turn your life around but gets the ball rolling would you have the same stance? If it’s part of a process of change for a person I just don’t see the sense in such strong antipathy for this single case, I suppose.
In other words, of the list of things here - cold showers, room tidying, brushing teeth, not eating like crap - it’s the masturbation this thread singles out and tells the person: no that thing, you should definitely continue doing that. Just seems unproductive to me.
SarahValentine@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 day ago
no that thing, you should definitely continue doing that. Just seems unproductive to me.
Who brought that idea in? You just made that up.
Of course, ‘never fapping’ and automagically being a good person is an absurd manosphere grift to push. But if they were following a specific diet which in itself also doesn’t turn your life around but gets the ball rolling would you have the same stance?
What we’re really talking about is the equivalent of following fad diets because a fascist with an agenda is trying to bend vulnerable people to a cause they don’t understand, using psychological knowledge and conditioning techniques. These people are not consulting licensed professionals, they’re not talking to psychiatrists or therapists, they’re listening to Joe Rogen podcasts and Facebook propaganda.
So while all these other things you talk about might have some merit to them, that’s not what we’re really talking about, nor what the problem actually is. The problem is these men live in a society that simultaneously tells them their desires are bad, show unrealistic body images and other impossible standards, tells them they need to work on themselves in superficial ways, and all while forcing them to live as wage slaves while the ultra-rich laugh at the hoops they’re getting people to jump through.
Figure it out.
Bluescluestoothpaste@sh.itjust.works 1 day ago
Yeah but drinking is inherently bad for you. Whether you “have a problem” or not, everyone would be healthier not drinking.
dependencyinjection@discuss.tchncs.de 1 day ago
I do understand that, perhaps more acutely than most as I’ve had countless destructive “hobbies” (my god hobby is the softest word I could find here) that I used to mask the underlying issue. Heck I’m still not sure I know the underlying cause but I have translated those destructive things with positive ones but the goal is the same. This is all to say I’m well versed in addiction, compulsions, and poor mental health.
With that in mind I would say that sometimes you have to stop the thing you’re doing, let’s say masturbating here, so you can get your body back to baseline before you can even begin to work with a therapist or do some introspection.
I’m not saying we should demonise masturbation, just accept that for some people they may need to stop doing that for a period whilst they then fix the other shit they got going on.
I’m in my forties and really never been happy and had a shit childhood that is still the cause of the way my mind bullies me to this very day. I’ve tried therapy before but when you’re in the midst of masking all your shit with other shit you really can’t make any progress in my experience. What I’ve done now is spend several years working on myself and replacing negative addictions with positive ones. That afforded me the will power to begin to remove the substances and other coping strategies. Now I actually feel I’m in a place where I might benefit from some EMDR or trauma therapy.
SarahValentine@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 day ago
If you think this is what “nofap” is about, you don’t understand the issue. Nofap isn’t a step toward therapy, nor does it avoid demonizing masturbation. It’s manosphere propaganda aimed at lonely, frustrated men to manipulate them through shame and further deprivation. People who have a genuine problem with self control where masturbation is concerned are just catching strays in this war where nofap ideology is a weapon.
dependencyinjection@discuss.tchncs.de 1 day ago
I had no idea that nofap was what you just described. I saw the green text as the person taking all those positives steps to get back to living life and not some Andrew Tate thing.
I apologise for my misunderstanding and wading into this discussion, as my concern is for the people who are doing things compulsively not manosphere stuff.
SarahValentine@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 day ago
It’s 4chan. Of course it’s a manospheric conformist post. If they actually did all that shit to improve their lives they’d also walk the fuck away from 4chan.