Comment on What is the difference between an American liberal and a liberal outside the USA?
davidgro@lemmy.world 1 day ago
To most Americans (including myself before reading into it due to Lemmy) Liberal is simply a synonym of ‘left-wing’ and has no distinction at all from that and other terms like ‘leftist’, ‘progressive’, etc. All of these terms mean exactly “not conservative” - mostly in a social sense.
My (weak) understanding is that outside the US, Liberal is a (mostly) economic position - specifically one supportive of capitalism, which both major parties in the US are. (With slight policy differences.)
Back in the 60s, Phil Ochs described a liberal as "10 degrees to the left of center in good times and 10 degrees to the right if it affects them personally".
I agree that most people understand it to mean anyone left of center, but the meaning of a weak or disingenuous leftist who often sides with the enemies of the left goes back a while.
Interesting. Hadn’t heard that one. (Or the sentiment)
On a side note, these days I feel like something affecting someone personally means it’s more likely to move them left - see leopards and faces.
(Unless it’s a tax or regulation, perhaps that’s what Phil was thinking of)
American conservatives have capitalized on denigrating the word “liberal” so thoroughly that using it in a remotely similar vein makes us ignore you immediately.
To be more specific on the capitalism front, liberals generally support a well-regulated market which also has safety nets like welfare. As opposed to positions like neoliberalism which supports As opposed to positions like neoliberalism, which supports laissez-faire markets and opposes welfare.
It drives me nuts when people treat liberals and neoliberals as the same thing.
positions like neoliberalism, which supports laissez-faire markets and opposes welfare.
Neoliberalism certainly supports welfare, ie every single corporate bailout since the 1980s. Neoliberalism is the natural conclusion to liberal democracies that fail to address class stratification properly and allow massive imbalance of power to grow so large the whole system becomes irreparable.
I understand what you’re saying and the political point you’re making but welfare, in political terms, is defined as state intervention via public institutions to ensure the economic and social wellbeing of its citizens.
A_norny_mousse@feddit.org 1 day ago
As a European: this precisely. There are slight variations in terminology: liberalism, libertarian, neoliberal… but nobody reads that as “left”. The “liberty” hinted at is always that of the market.
boonhet@sopuli.xyz 1 day ago
In my country the liberals are about both economic and social liberty. They want both gay and heterosexual people to have the freedom to pay for healthcare and education, which currently are free. The conservatives want at least healthcare and potentially education to remain free, but also want only white cishet people to exist. Socdems luckily exist to balance out the idiots.