The fewer weapons that people make for them, the fewer weapons they will have that they can use to kill brown people with. Therefore there is a clear line of cause an effect between making weapons for them and brown people dying. Therefore, the people making those weapons have caused harm, and would deserve to go to Hell if it existed.
This is all very straightforward, I still have no idea what you’re confused aboout.
It’s really not that complicated. We have two “issues”.
Engineers making weapons
Weapons being used to kill innocent people.
There is an easy solution to both: don’t make weapons. That’s a stupid solution because if your country doesn’t have any weapons it will be invaded by other country and innocent people will die.
You know this easy solution is stupid so you say we should only “reduce” the number of weapons. But this doesn’t solve any issues. Engineers still make weapons and those weapons can still be used to kill innocent people. You just saved some money which is completely different topic entirely.
So now you’re stuck in a loop claiming that your stupid solution will solve issue 2 (which it won’t) while ignoring issue 1 entirely.
The real “solution” is to not use weapons to kill innocent people. “Issue” 1 is not an issue at all. Engineers making weapons are necessary. “Issue” 2 has to be solved by the entire country by electing better politicians. Engineers don’t have more power here than farmers or doctors.
You’re saying, “a just society would need engineers to build weapons, to be used for defense, therefore, it is right for engineers to build weapons in an unjust society where they will be used for offense.” That does not follow at all. That’s like seeing a car stalled out in the middle of an intersection and saying, “A functional intersection would need me to go when the light is green, therefore, I should keep driving forward. The problem is the car in the intersection, someone needs to fix that, and I don’t need to change my behavior even if it’s going to lead to people dying, because I’m acting in a way that would be appropriate in a functioning intersection.”
That’s not how morality, reason, or anything else works. You have to look at the world as it actually exists and look at the predictable consequences of your actions in the actually existing world.
Again, I will return to the unanswered point from before, about how far you’re willing to extend this line of logic, whether you think it was morally neutral to manfacture Panzers and Zyklon B for the Nazis.
Your position is completely indefensible and untenable. You called me childish, when you’re refusing to acknowledge and adapt to the real world.
I live in Europe so I’m looking at this from European perspective. While I think I don’t live in a completely just society I think it’s pretty good, it can be improved and I would like for it to survive. So I think Europe should have weapons and we should have best engineers possible working on them. While their weapons are sometimes used for immoral things I don’t blame the engineers for it.
You’re looking at this from American perspective. You think your society is evil and it should be destroyed. You don’t think it should be able to defend itself at all and all engineers helping to preserve it are morally corrupt.
You’re looking at this from a perspective or a Nazi engineer in 1938 while I’m looking at it from a perspective or a Polish engineer in 1938.
So you’re taking the most extreme case and applying it to all arms companies while I treat as… well… extreme case.
I have a friend in Poland that works for a company providing components for weapon manufacturers. Some components they make were found in Gaza. Do I think he’s immoral and should quit? No, I think those components are necessary to protect Poland from Russia and I don’t think Poland should be destroyed. He can’t decide were those components will end up. Would I say the same about Israeli engineer? No.
Objection@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
The fewer weapons that people make for them, the fewer weapons they will have that they can use to kill brown people with. Therefore there is a clear line of cause an effect between making weapons for them and brown people dying. Therefore, the people making those weapons have caused harm, and would deserve to go to Hell if it existed.
This is all very straightforward, I still have no idea what you’re confused aboout.
ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net 3 weeks ago
It’s really not that complicated. We have two “issues”.
There is an easy solution to both: don’t make weapons. That’s a stupid solution because if your country doesn’t have any weapons it will be invaded by other country and innocent people will die.
You know this easy solution is stupid so you say we should only “reduce” the number of weapons. But this doesn’t solve any issues. Engineers still make weapons and those weapons can still be used to kill innocent people. You just saved some money which is completely different topic entirely.
So now you’re stuck in a loop claiming that your stupid solution will solve issue 2 (which it won’t) while ignoring issue 1 entirely.
The real “solution” is to not use weapons to kill innocent people. “Issue” 1 is not an issue at all. Engineers making weapons are necessary. “Issue” 2 has to be solved by the entire country by electing better politicians. Engineers don’t have more power here than farmers or doctors.
Objection@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
That’s complete nonsense.
You’re saying, “a just society would need engineers to build weapons, to be used for defense, therefore, it is right for engineers to build weapons in an unjust society where they will be used for offense.” That does not follow at all. That’s like seeing a car stalled out in the middle of an intersection and saying, “A functional intersection would need me to go when the light is green, therefore, I should keep driving forward. The problem is the car in the intersection, someone needs to fix that, and I don’t need to change my behavior even if it’s going to lead to people dying, because I’m acting in a way that would be appropriate in a functioning intersection.”
That’s not how morality, reason, or anything else works. You have to look at the world as it actually exists and look at the predictable consequences of your actions in the actually existing world.
Again, I will return to the unanswered point from before, about how far you’re willing to extend this line of logic, whether you think it was morally neutral to manfacture Panzers and Zyklon B for the Nazis.
Your position is completely indefensible and untenable. You called me childish, when you’re refusing to acknowledge and adapt to the real world.
ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net 3 weeks ago
Oh, I see what’s going on here.
I live in Europe so I’m looking at this from European perspective. While I think I don’t live in a completely just society I think it’s pretty good, it can be improved and I would like for it to survive. So I think Europe should have weapons and we should have best engineers possible working on them. While their weapons are sometimes used for immoral things I don’t blame the engineers for it.
You’re looking at this from American perspective. You think your society is evil and it should be destroyed. You don’t think it should be able to defend itself at all and all engineers helping to preserve it are morally corrupt.
You’re looking at this from a perspective or a Nazi engineer in 1938 while I’m looking at it from a perspective or a Polish engineer in 1938.
So you’re taking the most extreme case and applying it to all arms companies while I treat as… well… extreme case.
I have a friend in Poland that works for a company providing components for weapon manufacturers. Some components they make were found in Gaza. Do I think he’s immoral and should quit? No, I think those components are necessary to protect Poland from Russia and I don’t think Poland should be destroyed. He can’t decide were those components will end up. Would I say the same about Israeli engineer? No.