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Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 6 days agoLook, I get the centrist impulse to browbeat anyone to your left. I get that you see a rich nazi’s money. I get that you want his money by any means, and know the easiest way to get it is to collaborate, but if you’re gonna collaborate with nazis, you’d best get used to being compared to vidkun. Democrats don’t take an evil person’s money and then be like “sucker!” and run off with it and work contrary to that person’s interests. They stay bought. Just like they did with netanyahu and his genocide. That must not happen again here.
No one’s defending collaboration with fascists—we’re pointing out that trying to get a powerful oligarch with control over key infrastructure to behave responsibly is not the same as praising or submitting to him.
You’re defending collaboration with nazis in particular. You’re claiming that trying to get a wealthy nazi to give you donations is responsibility instead of selling out to a nazi.
During the last election, I watched democrats move to the right on immigration. I watched them throw trans people under the bus. They did this in a stupid attempt to get republicans to vote for them. republicans didn’t vote for them. republicans know how to shout “sucker!” and run off. And now I’m watching democrats look at a literal hitler heilin’ nazi and be like “oh now look, he’s not so bad! We can work with him to get what we (will come to) want!” Against all evidence, you trust establishment democrats to maintain integrity and not sell us all out. I don’t. They have no integrity to abandon.
Reddfugee42@lemmy.world 6 days ago
You’re absolutely right to distrust power. You should be suspicious when politicians start cozying up to billionaires, especially ones like Musk who openly enable fascist rhetoric and build platforms for it. But what you’re doing here isn’t just holding people accountable—you’re flattening nuance and turning every complex strategic move into evidence of moral failure. That’s not political clarity, it’s just a hammer looking for nails.
You say I’m defending collaboration with Nazis. I’m not. I’m describing the reality that when someone like Musk controls huge pieces of national infrastructure—satellites, EV production, social media, and contracts with NASA and the Pentagon—governments can’t just ignore him. That sucks. I wish they could. But calling it collaboration when they try to regulate or rein in his influence is missing the forest for the flamethrower. If Democrats had any real power to dismantle Musk’s influence tomorrow, I’d be cheering. But you don’t dismantle entrenched oligarchic power by refusing to engage with it at all. That’s not moral courage, that’s political impotence dressed up as righteousness.
You’re also setting up this neat little trap where no matter what Democrats do, they’re evil. If they talk to Musk, they’re “quislings.” If they don’t and he continues to spread fascism unchecked, you’ll say they failed to do anything. If they compromise on a bill, they’re sellouts. If they refuse to compromise and the GOP steamrolls them, you’ll call them ineffective. There’s no outcome where you’d say, “Yeah, that was principled and strategic.” That tells me this isn’t really about policy, it’s about purity. And I get it—being betrayed over and over makes you stop believing in any middle ground. But writing off every engagement as proof of corruption is a recipe for endless cynicism and zero progress.
And by the way, I didn’t say I “trust” establishment Democrats. I said they’re navigating a system where guys like Musk have been allowed to accumulate dangerous levels of influence. I don’t trust them to resist selling out unless they’re pushed—hard—by people who don’t buy into the “let’s all be polite and civil” nonsense. We need pressure. We need protest. But we also need clarity about what we’re actually fighting, and it isn’t that Bob Garcia said a few sentences to Elon Musk while also calling him a right-wing extremist.
You’re swinging wildly at everything that moves, and in doing so, you’re weakening your own point. Rage is justified, but if you want to build something better, you’ve got to aim it precisely. Otherwise, you’re just another person screaming betrayal while the real fascists laugh and consolidate power.
Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 5 days ago
You’re absolutely wrong to defend musk and his newfound toadies.
So should you. But you’re not.
And you’re turning naked simping for a literal nazi into a “complex strategic move.” What hogwash.
You’re doing absolutely nothing else.
Yeah, democrats want his sweet sweet nazi money and will collaborate with him to get it.
I’ve heard this when the party’s VP candidate killed the public option. I’ve heard this about every last time manchin “worked with” republicans to make sure campaign promises got broken. I’ve heard this about the unconditional weapons sales for netanyahu’s genocide. The current toadyism for musk is part of a pattern of behavior from a party that does nothing but suck.
Democrats are always conveniently powerless when they’re doing what centrists want. I don’t want a nazi becoming the de facto leader of the democratic party. Like manchin and netanyahu before him.
Engagement in democrats’ case means “kiss ass, take money, do as instructed.” elon is a nazi. You can’t appease nazis.
Democrats possess no moral courage whatsoever. They just want nazi money.
After decades of moving to the right for no gain, you expect this to be any different? I doubt it. Frankly, I think you welcome nazis like elon because they’re not progressives.
No. There are a precious few democrats doing the right thing right now. David Hogg is being ousted for doing the right thing. AOC is doing the right thing. The party censured Jayapal for doing the right thing. The party protects centrist incumbents in the primaries like they did for coathanger cuellar, but don’t protect progressives like Cori Bush and Jamaal Bowman.
Given centrists’ lengthy track record of selling us all out for donations, yes.
Tell me, what legislation have democrats even attempted to obstruct during the Trump administration? There has been one filibuster, and it wasn’t to stop any particular legislation or appointee. Right now, musk is a pile of nazi money without a party to give it to.
When they killed the public option without a single republican vote and then promised to revisit it but didn’t, they were sellouts. When they bailed out the banks without any accountability whatsoever, they were sellouts. When they worked with republicans to block the minimum wage increase, they were sellouts. When they worked under president manchin to kill Build Back Better one piece at a time, they were sellouts. In all cases, if the democratic caucus had voted with the unity they demand of the electorate, we would be in a better place. Not only that, if the caucus had voted with the unity they demand of the electorate, they could have killed the filibuster they have yet to use against the slightest whim of the trump administration, and instead voted in the lockstep they demand from voters to codify Roe and Obergefell. In NONE of these cases were they being steamrolled by republicans. In ALL of these cases, democrats had the seats but conveniently not the votes.
The GOP didn’t steamroll them on the minimum wage. The GOP had turncoats willing to work with them for money.
There is no outcome where you’ll admit they’re sellouts. Just a south park cable company “that sucks.”
There is no objection to anything centrist democrats do you won’t twig as “purity.”
Middle ground? That thing democrats keep chasing to the right?
There is space in the party for elon musk but not David Hogg, Cori Bush, or Jamaal Bowman. They censure Jayapal and work with a nazi.
Did you have to?
Then start. And quit having a greater problem with opposition to nazis than you do with nazis.
The only thing your party fights is progressives.
I guess you do find it funny. Enjoy the power you’re consolidating with musk.
Reddfugee42@lemmy.world 5 days ago
You keep mistaking anger for clarity. And I get it—that rage you’re carrying is earned. You’ve been watching a party that claims to fight for working people repeatedly fold in the name of bipartisanship, inaction, and big donor interests. You’ve watched policies you care about gutted, leaders you believe in sidelined, and warmongers handed the keys. You’re right to be pissed. But you’re swinging wildly and hitting everything in sight—including people who aren’t your enemies. You’re doing exactly what you accuse centrist Democrats of doing: handing power to the right by making the left ungovernable.
I’m not defending Musk, and I never have. If I could snap my fingers and vaporize his empire of tech-bro fascism tomorrow, I would. But you don’t get rid of oligarchs like Musk by pretending they don’t exist, or by refusing to engage with the systems they’ve embedded themselves in. You call that “simpering,” but that’s only because you’re desperate for a clean moral fight in a system that was built to prevent one. And your refusal to acknowledge that this is about tactics, not loyalty, is what turns your critique into just another flame war screed.
You claim I have no objection to Democratic sellouts, but I’ve literally listed examples where I agree with you: the public option betrayal, the Manchin theater, the Biden admin’s groveling to Netanyahu, and yes, the DCCC backing centrists over insurgents like Cisneros. Those were all shameful, and I said so. You think I’m blind to this. I’m not. I’m just not ready to throw every Democrat into the same trash fire because they’re not all equally culpable. The same party that primaries progressives is also the only one with members even trying to hold billionaires and the far-right accountable. That contradiction sucks. It also happens to be the battlefield we’re on. You can hate the terrain all you want—it’s still the place the fight is happening.
Your biggest tell, though, is how you keep trying to paint me as someone who wants to appease Nazis. That’s lazy, and you know it. You’re not arguing in good faith if you take someone saying “governments have to deal with the powerful forces that exist” and twist it into “you love Elon.” It’s the kind of kneejerk purity politics that makes the left easy to ignore. Not because it’s wrong in its goals, but because it can’t tell the difference between an enemy, an imperfect ally, and a potential pressure point. When the default setting is “everyone who isn’t radical enough is the same as a Nazi,” the right doesn’t need to destroy the left—the left does it to itself.
You say I should start applying pressure. I am. I back the AOCs and Jayapals. I donate, organize, and raise hell when Biden kisses Netanyahu’s ring or when the DNC backs scumbags like Cuellar. But I also don’t confuse shouting into a comment thread with changing the world. Rage is fuel, not a strategy. And as long as your strategy is just typing “nazi” in all caps at anyone who doesn’t fit your purity checklist, you’re playing right into the hands of the people consolidating actual power.
You want to be part of the fight? Then be part of it. But know the difference between sabotage and dissent. Because right now, you’re throwing stones at the people you’ll need beside you if we ever want to break the machine instead of just rage at it.
Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 5 days ago
If you don’t have the clarity to admit that elon musk is a nazi, don’t tell anyone else about clarity.
By people you are defending.
And you’re wrong to defend them.
nazis are my enemies.
Well maybe elon will fix that for you.
You’re defending democrats who are eager to do whatever he wants for money. That’s a distinction without much of a difference.
I doubt it.
musk just pissed off his only major customer. democrats do not need to provide him a replacement. Without access to the government teat, he will fail.
And now that all of those are faits accompli, you’ve come around. This latest thing with elon will be the wrong decision after the fact too, once the party has moved on to something inexplicably worse.
Of course they’re not. But the ones who are should not be allowed to continue unopposed. Others will get the idea that they can get away with working for elon the nazi instead of the American people. Just like they worked for netanyahu. If it doesn’t stop with support for a man who delivered nazi salutes, will it ever?
Until after the election, when they’re to blame for all the world’s ills, in order to justify moving to the right. In this case, into the arms of a literal nazi.
netanyahu was the previous imperfect ally. manchin before him. The party did everything both men wanted. elon will be no different.
I would ask if there are any examples of this in your comment history, but conveniently:
I live in texas. Shouting into a comment thread is all I have at my disposal. My rep is a republican. Both of my senators are republicans. It’s republicans all the way up. So when I see democrats, cast their lots with a nazi at the end of decades of betrayal, what else am I to do?
They didn’t betray you.
And bleating “pUrItY” at anyone with standards is how centrists consolidate that power with republicans.
Right. sabotage is anything to the left of elon musk.
The people I need are jumping all over themselves to defend people who want to work with nazis and never progressives. It’s your machine.