Ah, so now we’ve arrived at the part of the conversation where you start yelling “quisling” like a drunk history major trying to sound profound in a Reddit flame war. Look, if you’re going to throw around World War II analogies, maybe at least get the dynamics right. No one’s defending collaboration with fascists—we’re pointing out that trying to get a powerful oligarch with control over key infrastructure to behave responsibly is not the same as praising or submitting to him. You can hate someone’s guts and still be forced to deal with them when they’ve wormed their way into controlling satellites, manufacturing, and public discourse. That’s not “toadyism,” that’s a sign of how broken and lopsided the system is.
What’s hilarious is how fast you flipped the script. First, you accuse Democrats of warming to Musk—then when I point out they actually see him as dangerous but are forced to deal with him, you spin that as betrayal anyway. So which is it? Do they love him, or are they spineless for working with someone they distrust? You can’t even hold your own narrative steady for five minutes.
And let’s not pretend you’re some paragon of ideological purity here, lobbing insults from the moral high ground. You’re doing the online version of smashing your toy soldiers together and declaring victory with a word like “quisling” while completely missing the point. No one here worships Elon. I literally said I’d laugh if Tesla crashed and Elon got roasted, and you still managed to accuse me of “defending” him. If you think that’s defending, maybe you need to reset your sarcasm meter—or just your whole personality.
Anyway, go ahead and shout into the void some more. I’m sure the ghosts of the Third Reich are super impressed with your vocabulary.
Look, I get the centrist impulse to browbeat anyone to your left. I get that you see a rich nazi’s money. I get that you want his money by any means, and know the easiest way to get it is to collaborate, but if you’re gonna collaborate with nazis, you’d best get used to being compared to vidkun. Democrats don’t take an evil person’s money and then be like “sucker!” and run off with it and work contrary to that person’s interests. They stay bought. Just like they did with netanyahu and his genocide. That must not happen again here.
No one’s defending collaboration with fascists—we’re pointing out that trying to get a powerful oligarch with control over key infrastructure to behave responsibly is not the same as praising or submitting to him.
You’re defending collaboration with nazis in particular. You’re claiming that trying to get a wealthy nazi to give you donations is responsibility instead of selling out to a nazi.
During the last election, I watched democrats move to the right on immigration. I watched them throw trans people under the bus. They did this in a stupid attempt to get republicans to vote for them. republicans didn’t vote for them. republicans know how to shout “sucker!” and run off. And now I’m watching democrats look at a literal hitler heilin’ nazi and be like “oh now look, he’s not so bad! We can work with him to get what we (will come to) want!” Against all evidence, you trust establishment democrats to maintain integrity and not sell us all out. I don’t. They have no integrity to abandon.
You’re absolutely right to distrust power. You should be suspicious when politicians start cozying up to billionaires, especially ones like Musk who openly enable fascist rhetoric and build platforms for it. But what you’re doing here isn’t just holding people accountable—you’re flattening nuance and turning every complex strategic move into evidence of moral failure. That’s not political clarity, it’s just a hammer looking for nails.
You say I’m defending collaboration with Nazis. I’m not. I’m describing the reality that when someone like Musk controls huge pieces of national infrastructure—satellites, EV production, social media, and contracts with NASA and the Pentagon—governments can’t just ignore him. That sucks. I wish they could. But calling it collaboration when they try to regulate or rein in his influence is missing the forest for the flamethrower. If Democrats had any real power to dismantle Musk’s influence tomorrow, I’d be cheering. But you don’t dismantle entrenched oligarchic power by refusing to engage with it at all. That’s not moral courage, that’s political impotence dressed up as righteousness.
You’re also setting up this neat little trap where no matter what Democrats do, they’re evil. If they talk to Musk, they’re “quislings.” If they don’t and he continues to spread fascism unchecked, you’ll say they failed to do anything. If they compromise on a bill, they’re sellouts. If they refuse to compromise and the GOP steamrolls them, you’ll call them ineffective. There’s no outcome where you’d say, “Yeah, that was principled and strategic.” That tells me this isn’t really about policy, it’s about purity. And I get it—being betrayed over and over makes you stop believing in any middle ground. But writing off every engagement as proof of corruption is a recipe for endless cynicism and zero progress.
And by the way, I didn’t say I “trust” establishment Democrats. I said they’re navigating a system where guys like Musk have been allowed to accumulate dangerous levels of influence. I don’t trust them to resist selling out unless they’re pushed—hard—by people who don’t buy into the “let’s all be polite and civil” nonsense. We need pressure. We need protest. But we also need clarity about what we’re actually fighting, and it isn’t that Bob Garcia said a few sentences to Elon Musk while also calling him a right-wing extremist.
You’re swinging wildly at everything that moves, and in doing so, you’re weakening your own point. Rage is justified, but if you want to build something better, you’ve got to aim it precisely. Otherwise, you’re just another person screaming betrayal while the real fascists laugh and consolidate power.
You’re absolutely wrong to defend musk and his newfound toadies.
You should be suspicious when politicians start cozying up to billionaires, especially ones like Musk who openly enable fascist rhetoric and build platforms for it.
So should you. But you’re not.
But what you’re doing here isn’t just holding people accountable—you’re flattening nuance and turning every complex strategic move into evidence of moral failure.
And you’re turning naked simping for a literal nazi into a “complex strategic move.” What hogwash.
You say I’m defending collaboration with Nazis. I’m not.
You’re doing absolutely nothing else.
I’m describing the reality that when someone like Musk controls huge pieces of national infrastructure—satellites, EV production, social media, and contracts with NASA and the Pentagon—governments can’t just ignore him.
Yeah, democrats want his sweet sweet nazi money and will collaborate with him to get it.
That sucks.
I’ve heard this when the party’s VP candidate killed the public option. I’ve heard this about every last time manchin “worked with” republicans to make sure campaign promises got broken. I’ve heard this about the unconditional weapons sales for netanyahu’s genocide. The current toadyism for musk is part of a pattern of behavior from a party that does nothing but suck.
If Democrats had any real power to dismantle Musk’s influence tomorrow, I’d be cheering.
Democrats are always conveniently powerless when they’re doing what centrists want. I don’t want a nazi becoming the de facto leader of the democratic party. Like manchin and netanyahu before him.
But you don’t dismantle entrenched oligarchic power by refusing to engage with it at all.
Engagement in democrats’ case means “kiss ass, take money, do as instructed.” elon is a nazi. You can’t appease nazis.
That’s not moral courage
Democrats possess no moral courage whatsoever. They just want nazi money.
that’s political impotence dressed up as righteousness.
After decades of moving to the right for no gain, you expect this to be any different? I doubt it. Frankly, I think you welcome nazis like elon because they’re not progressives.
You’re also setting up this neat little trap where no matter what Democrats do, they’re evil.
No. There are a precious few democrats doing the right thing right now. David Hogg is being ousted for doing the right thing. AOC is doing the right thing. The party censured Jayapal for doing the right thing. The party protects centrist incumbents in the primaries like they did for coathanger cuellar, but don’t protect progressives like Cori Bush and Jamaal Bowman.
If they talk to Musk, they’re “quislings.”
Given centrists’ lengthy track record of selling us all out for donations, yes.
If they don’t and he continues to spread fascism unchecked, you’ll say they failed to do anything.
Tell me, what legislation have democrats even attempted to obstruct during the Trump administration? There has been one filibuster, and it wasn’t to stop any particular legislation or appointee. Right now, musk is a pile of nazi money without a party to give it to.
If they compromise on a bill, they’re sellouts.
When they killed the public option without a single republican vote and then promised to revisit it but didn’t, they were sellouts. When they bailed out the banks without any accountability whatsoever, they were sellouts. When they worked with republicans to block the minimum wage increase, they were sellouts. When they worked under president manchin to kill Build Back Better one piece at a time, they were sellouts. In all cases, if the democratic caucus had voted with the unity they demand of the electorate, we would be in a better place. Not only that, if the caucus had voted with the unity they demand of the electorate, they could have killed the filibuster they have yet to use against the slightest whim of the trump administration, and instead voted in the lockstep they demand from voters to codify Roe and Obergefell. In NONE of these cases were they being steamrolled by republicans. In ALL of these cases, democrats had the seats but conveniently not the votes.
If they refuse to compromise and the GOP steamrolls them, you’ll call them ineffective.
The GOP didn’t steamroll them on the minimum wage. The GOP had turncoats willing to work with them for money.
There’s no outcome where you’d say, “Yeah, that was principled and strategic.”
There is no outcome where you’ll admit they’re sellouts. Just a south park cable company “that sucks.”
That tells me this isn’t really about policy, it’s about purity.
There is no objection to anything centrist democrats do you won’t twig as “purity.”
And I get it—being betrayed over and over makes you stop believing in any middle ground.
Middle ground? That thing democrats keep chasing to the right?
But writing off every engagement as proof of corruption is a recipe for endless cynicism and zero progress.
There is space in the party for elon musk but not David Hogg, Cori Bush, or Jamaal Bowman. They censure Jayapal and work with a nazi.
And by the way, I didn’t say I “trust” establishment Democrats.
Did you have to?
I said they’re navigating a system where guys like Musk have been allowed to accumulate dangerous levels of influence. I don’t trust them to resist selling out unless they’re pushed—hard—by people who don’t buy into the “let’s all be polite and civil” nonsense. We need pressure. We need protest.
Then start. And quit having a greater problem with opposition to nazis than you do with nazis.
But we also need clarity about what we’re actually fighting, and it isn’t that Bob Garcia said a few sentences to Elon Musk while also calling him a right-wing extremist.
The only thing your party fights is progressives.
Rage is justified, but if you want to build something better, you’ve got to aim it precisely. Otherwise, you’re just another person screaming betrayal while the real fascists laugh and consolidate power.
I guess you do find it funny. Enjoy the power you’re consolidating with musk.
Reddfugee42@lemmy.world 1 week ago
Ah, so now we’ve arrived at the part of the conversation where you start yelling “quisling” like a drunk history major trying to sound profound in a Reddit flame war. Look, if you’re going to throw around World War II analogies, maybe at least get the dynamics right. No one’s defending collaboration with fascists—we’re pointing out that trying to get a powerful oligarch with control over key infrastructure to behave responsibly is not the same as praising or submitting to him. You can hate someone’s guts and still be forced to deal with them when they’ve wormed their way into controlling satellites, manufacturing, and public discourse. That’s not “toadyism,” that’s a sign of how broken and lopsided the system is.
What’s hilarious is how fast you flipped the script. First, you accuse Democrats of warming to Musk—then when I point out they actually see him as dangerous but are forced to deal with him, you spin that as betrayal anyway. So which is it? Do they love him, or are they spineless for working with someone they distrust? You can’t even hold your own narrative steady for five minutes.
And let’s not pretend you’re some paragon of ideological purity here, lobbing insults from the moral high ground. You’re doing the online version of smashing your toy soldiers together and declaring victory with a word like “quisling” while completely missing the point. No one here worships Elon. I literally said I’d laugh if Tesla crashed and Elon got roasted, and you still managed to accuse me of “defending” him. If you think that’s defending, maybe you need to reset your sarcasm meter—or just your whole personality.
Anyway, go ahead and shout into the void some more. I’m sure the ghosts of the Third Reich are super impressed with your vocabulary.
Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 6 days ago
Look, I get the centrist impulse to browbeat anyone to your left. I get that you see a rich nazi’s money. I get that you want his money by any means, and know the easiest way to get it is to collaborate, but if you’re gonna collaborate with nazis, you’d best get used to being compared to vidkun. Democrats don’t take an evil person’s money and then be like “sucker!” and run off with it and work contrary to that person’s interests. They stay bought. Just like they did with netanyahu and his genocide. That must not happen again here.
You’re defending collaboration with nazis in particular. You’re claiming that trying to get a wealthy nazi to give you donations is responsibility instead of selling out to a nazi.
During the last election, I watched democrats move to the right on immigration. I watched them throw trans people under the bus. They did this in a stupid attempt to get republicans to vote for them. republicans didn’t vote for them. republicans know how to shout “sucker!” and run off. And now I’m watching democrats look at a literal hitler heilin’ nazi and be like “oh now look, he’s not so bad! We can work with him to get what we (will come to) want!” Against all evidence, you trust establishment democrats to maintain integrity and not sell us all out. I don’t. They have no integrity to abandon.
Reddfugee42@lemmy.world 6 days ago
You’re absolutely right to distrust power. You should be suspicious when politicians start cozying up to billionaires, especially ones like Musk who openly enable fascist rhetoric and build platforms for it. But what you’re doing here isn’t just holding people accountable—you’re flattening nuance and turning every complex strategic move into evidence of moral failure. That’s not political clarity, it’s just a hammer looking for nails.
You say I’m defending collaboration with Nazis. I’m not. I’m describing the reality that when someone like Musk controls huge pieces of national infrastructure—satellites, EV production, social media, and contracts with NASA and the Pentagon—governments can’t just ignore him. That sucks. I wish they could. But calling it collaboration when they try to regulate or rein in his influence is missing the forest for the flamethrower. If Democrats had any real power to dismantle Musk’s influence tomorrow, I’d be cheering. But you don’t dismantle entrenched oligarchic power by refusing to engage with it at all. That’s not moral courage, that’s political impotence dressed up as righteousness.
You’re also setting up this neat little trap where no matter what Democrats do, they’re evil. If they talk to Musk, they’re “quislings.” If they don’t and he continues to spread fascism unchecked, you’ll say they failed to do anything. If they compromise on a bill, they’re sellouts. If they refuse to compromise and the GOP steamrolls them, you’ll call them ineffective. There’s no outcome where you’d say, “Yeah, that was principled and strategic.” That tells me this isn’t really about policy, it’s about purity. And I get it—being betrayed over and over makes you stop believing in any middle ground. But writing off every engagement as proof of corruption is a recipe for endless cynicism and zero progress.
And by the way, I didn’t say I “trust” establishment Democrats. I said they’re navigating a system where guys like Musk have been allowed to accumulate dangerous levels of influence. I don’t trust them to resist selling out unless they’re pushed—hard—by people who don’t buy into the “let’s all be polite and civil” nonsense. We need pressure. We need protest. But we also need clarity about what we’re actually fighting, and it isn’t that Bob Garcia said a few sentences to Elon Musk while also calling him a right-wing extremist.
You’re swinging wildly at everything that moves, and in doing so, you’re weakening your own point. Rage is justified, but if you want to build something better, you’ve got to aim it precisely. Otherwise, you’re just another person screaming betrayal while the real fascists laugh and consolidate power.
Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 5 days ago
You’re absolutely wrong to defend musk and his newfound toadies.
So should you. But you’re not.
And you’re turning naked simping for a literal nazi into a “complex strategic move.” What hogwash.
You’re doing absolutely nothing else.
Yeah, democrats want his sweet sweet nazi money and will collaborate with him to get it.
I’ve heard this when the party’s VP candidate killed the public option. I’ve heard this about every last time manchin “worked with” republicans to make sure campaign promises got broken. I’ve heard this about the unconditional weapons sales for netanyahu’s genocide. The current toadyism for musk is part of a pattern of behavior from a party that does nothing but suck.
Democrats are always conveniently powerless when they’re doing what centrists want. I don’t want a nazi becoming the de facto leader of the democratic party. Like manchin and netanyahu before him.
Engagement in democrats’ case means “kiss ass, take money, do as instructed.” elon is a nazi. You can’t appease nazis.
Democrats possess no moral courage whatsoever. They just want nazi money.
After decades of moving to the right for no gain, you expect this to be any different? I doubt it. Frankly, I think you welcome nazis like elon because they’re not progressives.
No. There are a precious few democrats doing the right thing right now. David Hogg is being ousted for doing the right thing. AOC is doing the right thing. The party censured Jayapal for doing the right thing. The party protects centrist incumbents in the primaries like they did for coathanger cuellar, but don’t protect progressives like Cori Bush and Jamaal Bowman.
Given centrists’ lengthy track record of selling us all out for donations, yes.
Tell me, what legislation have democrats even attempted to obstruct during the Trump administration? There has been one filibuster, and it wasn’t to stop any particular legislation or appointee. Right now, musk is a pile of nazi money without a party to give it to.
When they killed the public option without a single republican vote and then promised to revisit it but didn’t, they were sellouts. When they bailed out the banks without any accountability whatsoever, they were sellouts. When they worked with republicans to block the minimum wage increase, they were sellouts. When they worked under president manchin to kill Build Back Better one piece at a time, they were sellouts. In all cases, if the democratic caucus had voted with the unity they demand of the electorate, we would be in a better place. Not only that, if the caucus had voted with the unity they demand of the electorate, they could have killed the filibuster they have yet to use against the slightest whim of the trump administration, and instead voted in the lockstep they demand from voters to codify Roe and Obergefell. In NONE of these cases were they being steamrolled by republicans. In ALL of these cases, democrats had the seats but conveniently not the votes.
The GOP didn’t steamroll them on the minimum wage. The GOP had turncoats willing to work with them for money.
There is no outcome where you’ll admit they’re sellouts. Just a south park cable company “that sucks.”
There is no objection to anything centrist democrats do you won’t twig as “purity.”
Middle ground? That thing democrats keep chasing to the right?
There is space in the party for elon musk but not David Hogg, Cori Bush, or Jamaal Bowman. They censure Jayapal and work with a nazi.
Did you have to?
Then start. And quit having a greater problem with opposition to nazis than you do with nazis.
The only thing your party fights is progressives.
I guess you do find it funny. Enjoy the power you’re consolidating with musk.