sudneo

@sudneo@lemm.ee

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Transitioning in STEM⁩ ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago⁩:

  what “held to a higher standard” might actually mean?

  What do you mean, what can actually mean? It means that women are held to a higher standard, which means that to achieve a given result, they need to perform at a higher level compared to people not held to the same standard (males). There is no standard that women are expected to meet to sign up to - say - computer engineering, exactly like there is no standard for males to sign up to -say- psychology. In both cases though there are social pressures that make sure that the people within the spectrum of “I have vague interest in this” will be pushed one side or another depending on their gender.

  In the specific case, the frame of the discussion was the women studying subjects which are male dominated (I am generalising from the specific context of computer engineering). I don’t believe “higher standards” play a role here (in general), because otherwise we could not explain many data points.

  What in your opinion means being held to a higher standard in this context? And if that’s the case, how do you explain the fact that women seem to make plenty of independent educational choices in many (most, in fact) other fields, and that they generally have a higher success than men? Is this standard only applied for male dominated fields? Does it mean that males are held to a higher standard in psychology, medicine, literature etc.? Because if that’s the case, then I find this concept of standard really redundant to what I consider social pressure to adhere to gender roles.

  because that’s exactly what you are doing.

  Contesting the general validity of one’s experience is not at all talking about that experience, let alone contesting it. So no, I am not doing it and I don’t have any interest in doing that.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Transitioning in STEM⁩ ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:

  unless you’re really just tellin a woman “this unrelated data doesn’t match your life experience”

  I am saying that the very relevant data (ironically, gathered as part of the respect-stop violence project) indeed doesn’t match that lived experience. Which means that perhaps that experience cannot be generalized?

  If someone claims that women are held to a higher standard, I think asking “how is it possible that on average, at all levels, they get higher grades and they are the majority of students?” is a fair question. The hypothesis that women are held to a higher standard in this context would imply the obvious conclusion that only the “best” would make it, which is in direct opposition with the data that women are a substantial majority of students everywhere.

  On the other hand I perfectly acknowledged that gender stereotypes exist and these do explain both sides of the equation that I presented with “unrelated data”: they explain both having a mere 13% of females in IT faculties and having 8% of males in education faculties. The same exact dynamic applies to males and females, which both - due to peer pressure, and fixed gender roles - end up being discouraged to pursue certain careers.

  If “women get discouraged their whole life” was a generally valid statement, then asking “why then they are the majority of medicine students, a faculty with the toughest admission exam, a scientific faculty and also a long and hard one - 11 years in total” is also a valid question in my opinion.

  So yeah, despite what you might think, while I have no interest to debate or invalidate one’s experience, maybe this cannot be generalized if there are quite glaring issues with statistical data. Why would you consider data about gender distribution in the education sector in Italy irrelevant in the context of gender dynamics in education (in Italy, since that’s what my comment discussed), is a mystery to me. It’s even more of a mystery considering that that very same data was gathered specifically within the contest of a project about women equality.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Transitioning in STEM⁩ ⁨⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:

  That genuinely sucks. I think that school is far from perfect even in my experience, and yet reading this I can’t help but feeling so disconnected from it. My experience has been so different.

  To give some different anecdotal experience:

  • scientific school in suburb of Rome
  • majority males

  My class of 31 in first grade saw 5 new students over the course of the 5 years. 10 people graduated. In the class, 2 female students were genuinely encouraged to be point of almost be privileged in subjects like technical drawing or math. They are the only ones that ended up leaving school with the highest grade (both of them Physics PhD now). In comparison a male student was objectively brilliant. The kind of guy who could figure out physics formulas on his own, great at math Olympics etc. Didn’t pass the last year, among other reason due to absences. No teacher ever encouraged him, and he was treated like just a guy who didn’t want to do anything. Had a strange family situation, but anyway, ultimately now works in the family bar (which is nothing bad, of course, but a massive waste of potential).

  I think despite all the limitations, all the problems, my school experience was not one where these kinds of stereotypes were present. Our study groups have always been mixed etc. All our math, physics, biology, chemistry teachers have been female but one.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Transitioning in STEM⁩ ⁨⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:

  But what you are saying doesn’t match much the data (at least in Italy). In Italy females consistently get higher grades than miles, in all levels of school, and they do that from other women teachers (including STEM subjects).

  How this matches “being held to a different standard”, for example?

  They are the vast majority of schools in humanities (languages, classical studies, etc.) and all “licei” (=high schools created with the purpose of forming the ruling class back in 1920s) and they are the minority only in technical schools (which are generally lower quality schools more oriented toward professions than university) and in the scientific high school.

  This also doesn’t seem to suggest any encouragement or discouragement in one direction or another, BUT it does match perfectly the culturally rigid gender stereotypes about women being more creative and fitting roles of care.

  Also worth noting that women attend university in a higher % (56%) compared to men (also a result of gender stereotypes IMHO) and with higher grades on average. They are also the majority of PhD students (59%).

  So my question I guess would be: why medicine and psychology are mostly and overwhelmingly women faculties, while engineering etc. are the opposite?

  any interest or persuasion being dismantled and/or dismissed for decades before uni.

  I wouldn’t say “any”, but I would absolutely say that interests in fields that are traditionally male-dominated are discouraged for women and viceversa (I have written in another comment, the imbalance in educational science is even higher than the one in engineering).

  So I do see gender roles, I do see cultural influences about what is " for men" and “for women”, I don’t see the different standard women are held up to.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Transitioning in STEM⁩ ⁨⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:

  It’s quite hard to make connections between statements about adult society (I.e. workplace, reproductive rights) and what happens in teenagers in a completely shielded (and tbh, fairly inclusive) environment like schools (mostly, high school as that’s when people decide to sign up in university). Actually, possibly what happens even earlier, as many people who go to STEM faculties in university come from the “scientific high school” which is the only “liceo” where males are more than females.

  On average females earn also higher grades, in all levels of school (which is why I don’t find solid the argument that women have to abide higher standard of excellence in this context).

  So all this to say, I definitely think there is a cultural issue that pushes women away from STEM subjects (a phenomenon quite common in all the West), but I don’t think is what my interlocutor suggested - that is another expression of women having to meet higher standards. This wouldn’t explain the corresponding imbalance in other areas.

  To make an example: 91.8% of students in teaching sciences are females. 87% of students in computer science are males. I wouldn’t say that culture stereotypes and fixed gender roles are responsible for both, and instead this idea of “higher standards” seems fuzzy and explains only one side of the equation.

  Curious also to note that women are absolutely the vast majority of teachers in kindergarten (99.3%!), primary school (97%), secondary school (77%) and high school (65%). While women are perfectly capable of reproducing gender oppression, it’s also fair to assume that there are plenty of women role models in STEM subjects.

  Anyway, besides this long thing, I can’t find solid connections between what you posted and the topic, can you maybe elaborate your point?

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Transitioning in STEM⁩ ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:

  Absolutely…but how does that relate to the previous topic?

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Transitioning in STEM⁩ ⁨⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:

  Tbh, in Italy there is no much “before university” in terms of “being excellent”. The admission test was extremely easy, with a very high number of admitted students and on topics that are common to all high schools (we have a completely different school system in Italy). In fact, the vast majority of people in my class never studied those topics in high school. Also university costs were low (from 0 to ~2k/year depending on family income).

  But I think that a mix of stereotypes (I.e. gender stereotypes), peer pressure (do you want to go study in a class 90% men) and other social issues definitely discourage all but the most motivated women to join, which is a shame.

  The same exact thing applies to many other faculties of course. Psychology and “educational sciences” (literal translation) are basically just women (at least in Italy), which is exactly the same phenomenon.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Transitioning in STEM⁩ ⁨⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:

  Yep, if the number was not given specifically to connect that is what makes it inappropriate for me. But overall, an invite to a date besides being old fashioned is not necessarily creepy, even after long time. Of course, I don’t know if there were additional clues that made the whole thing creepy (tone of voice, phrasing etc.).

  I studied computer engineering in Italy, and I can relate with the number of women being very low. I think there were maybe <10 women in the whole class on a ~60 people total after the first semester (starting with 250 people). Most of them were top of the class, which to me always suggested that while many men signed up and then “see how it goes”, only women who knew exactly what they wanted signed up.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Transitioning in STEM⁩ ⁨⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩:

  Is that … a bad thing? I am missing something, did he take the number from somewhere or you gave it to him? But otherwise calling someone and asking out is a pretty harmless thing to do.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨What are some FOSS programs that are objectively better than their proprietary counterparts?⁩ ⁨⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago⁩:

  Not to talk about annotations. Take screenshot, click preview, click edit, click rectangle tool, make rectangle (repeat), click done. Instead with flameshot it’s literally 2 clicks. Thanks for writing documentation BTW, on behalf of whomever you work with.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨What are some FOSS programs that are objectively better than their proprietary counterparts?⁩ ⁨⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago⁩:

  I have opposite experiences! Multiple Linux laptop, with multiple docking stations: a bit of xrandr magic and everything works, forever. (BTW, try setting manually the refresh rate at different values for the two monitors via xrandr, I have solves a similar problem to yours in the past by creating a dedicated display class.)

  On a Mac, it’s impossible, I have to plug one cable directly in the computer to make it work, and the quality of the output on 2k monitor is way worse since they disabled sub-pixel rendering or some stuff.

  Windows also works decently on this regard, until it doesn’t (my partner’s PC stopped recognizing HDMI monitor at some point, and the debugging was frustrating as hell).

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨What are some FOSS programs that are objectively better than their proprietary counterparts?⁩ ⁨⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago⁩:

  I agree so much for flameshot. For work I moved to a Mac and we are not allowed to install flameshot (signing issue), and the workflow for taking screenshots (e.g., when writing documentation) is so much worse and slow with the default macOS tooling.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨ooo.ooo⁩ ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago⁩:

  Ahaha somehow I was thinking about the face and didn’t think about Fantozzi because of the pants.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨ooo.ooo⁩ ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago⁩:

  Now I am curious, what are you referring to?

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Murica⁩ ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago⁩:

  I live in a city, the concept of suburbs barely exists here. Also cyclists ride on roads quite often, especially sports bikes on roads leaving the city. Within the city also, but with bike lanes it’s harder to see. Just now there are big panels in the city for an awareness campaign reading “the street is for everyone”, imagine.

  Last i checked cars had a steering wheel and a brake pedal, so " running over" someone is a matter of negligence or incompetence. Not sure which one you think is your problem, but that makes it your responsibility. Saying that the road is for everyone is a fact, not sure why you perceive that as elitist, which has literally the opposite meaning.

  Finally I am curious, what is a “real car” lol

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Murica⁩ ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago⁩:

  No, the road is meant for high-speed cars. Get your slow, fragile bikes off of them.

  No it’s not. Not according to most legal systems at least. Not sure where you live, but I am quite sure that except some specific roads (like highways), most roads are meant for all vehicles. The fact that you can’t see past your own needs is something between you and your therapist, but I suggest you check your local regulation.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Murica⁩ ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago⁩:

  I disagree with the person you are responding too (I don’t think it’s impolite to use F), but to be fair C to F is “double and add 32” (technically 9/5+32), which is very easy to compute, while the reverse is -32 and then /2, which is generally harder (I think most people find subtractions harder).

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Murica⁩ ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago⁩:

  Yeah I have seen a “bike lane” being created by just painting the road, which is obviously not great. Bikes parked on the sidewalk are a symptom of missing parkings, as I mentioned, which is also why pushing for cycling requires more than lanes, requires parking spots and supporting infrastructure.

  Also, I share part of your pain. Sometimes it happens that I cycle on bike and pedestrian roads (I.e., meant for both) and I need to dodge parked scooters, especially those parked in front of ramps. Unfortunately there is no infrastructure or planning that is asshole-proof.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Murica⁩ ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago⁩:

  That is annoying indeed. It is usually the result of missing infrastructure (bike racks) though, which is way less expensive and consumes way less space that equivalent car parkings. There are also always assholes, but in Tallinn for example I love the bike racks I can open with my public transport card, I can’t imagine anybody leaving a bike in the middle of the street (having to tie it up) when you have a close, secure and convenient rack nearby.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Murica⁩ ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago⁩:

  I cycled from Bruges to Amsterdam this summer and honestly it was an amazing holiday. Few days with headwind made us wish we had eBikes but the infrastructure was amazing. We basically could cycle on bike roads for 90%+ of the distance and felt very safe doing so. We loved especially Zealand landscape, food and small roads passing through the fields.

  I think few countries would have made the holiday so pleasuring and chill, and obviously we encountered just so many people going on with their daily life even between cities with their bikes (I am assuming 20+ km rides). I have noticed that with ebikes also elder people had complete freedom to use bikes as they wished.

  I really hope the dutch model is followed by more cities or countries.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Leo knew it was a joke and laughed because it was just a joke⁩ ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:

  Right, then let me elaborate.

  Take furries. Using a moralistic approach such as yours I could conclude that they are freaks who encourage bestiality. Instead I think that consenting adults can do what they want as long as they are not harming anybody (this part was obviously implied, but suddenly you lost the ability to use context and imply things when it was convenient to build a strawman).

  Take women with control-related kinks. Using your moralistic approach I could go tell them that they are victims of bla bla bla who internalized bla bla bla, and that ultimately men who accept to please those kinks perpetrate bla bla bla. Instead, I think that consenting adults can get off the way they want.

  I could go on, but the point is clear, hopefully.

  On this topic you are a bigot. You are a bigot because you are essentially using a dogma that women can only act as victims of a system that oppresses them and nothing else. You are stripping away agency, and applying rigid moral rules grounded in that dogma. You are using a very similar approach that homophobes use to hate on gay people, you just think that you are doing it for good© reasons to defend oppressed minorities; or singular actually, because this only applies to women dating older men I suppose? Or you also have other definitions for wrong couples? Black woman/white man? Indigenous woman/white man? Poor woman/rich man? And what if this was a lesbian couple? 25yo woman/50+ woman?

  I would like to know the mental gymnastic to bend that “moral principle” so that you don’t end up against mixed race couples or similar, because if you consider people only expression of their social group, you absolutely can conclude that some (all?) of those relationships represent and perpetrate the same power inequality that exists between their demographics.

  Elsewhere you suggested to people to “check your own biases”, maybe you can take your own suggestion here and try to see if your analysis fell short.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Leo knew it was a joke and laughed because it was just a joke⁩ ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:

  Yes, it’s the same thing here, great parallel.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Leo knew it was a joke and laughed because it was just a joke⁩ ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:

  “We don’t judge other people sexual preferences, unless they are the wrong ones according to me”

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Leo knew it was a joke and laughed because it was just a joke⁩ ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:

  Hard disagree.

  Also there are plenty of opposite examples (i.e., older women celebrities dating younger guys), what is that a symptom of?

  This has nothing to do with feminism imho. In fact, I would say the opposite, it’s an attempt to prescribe what women should do. Religious morality.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Leo knew it was a joke and laughed because it was just a joke⁩ ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:

  I would or wouldn’t do lots of things that I accept others might do. My morality is not universal. I leave this kind of thinking to religion.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Leo knew it was a joke and laughed because it was just a joke⁩ ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:

  And this notion that you should date only people your age where does it come from? It seems a completely arbitrary moral claim to me.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Leo knew it was a joke and laughed because it was just a joke⁩ ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:

  People are allowed to date for whatever reason they want. As long as two adults are freely consenting it’s not up to you to be the moral police and decide what should push people to date each other.

  They can date for the looks, to look or feel younger, to go outside their comfort zone, for sexual pleasure, for pure intellectual attraction, for material benefit, for […long list].

  This is one of the instances in which the good goal of fighting abuse becomes bigotry. It’s basically like religious moralism.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨I'm rich and powerful so I can violate laws and brag about it on social media⁩ ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:

  I get the racial stereotypation, but at least it should be funny.

  Btw, taking a hunting license requires a medical exam (including psycho-physic evaluation), a basic zoology exam to recognize species, an exam on laws around hunting, one about nature preservation and one on weapons handling. It has to be renewed every 5 years.

  Nothing too complicated, tons of idiots have it, but still quite a process.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Co-op campaigns are a rarity these days, and that should change⁩ ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:

  If you likes it takes two, in march the same studio should release “split fiction”.

  Other titles that come to mind: cuphead, untitled goose game, overcooked (!), valheim.

• ⁨Comment⁩ on ⁨Italy: thousands strike against low salaries and weakened public services. "We are forced to do double shifts to give the minimal levels of essential care."⁩ ⁨⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩:

  I wish this could be blamed on current or recent (or right wing) governments. The progressive demolition and/or privatization of welfare (from healthcare to social security nets) is a process that goes on for at least 20 years now, carried out by all the main parties.