Comment on What are the next steps for Americans to help prevent the worsening of genocide in Palestine?
Lauchs@lemmy.world 3 days agoThe older you get, the more you’ll realize it’s okay and even a good idea to just say “I don’t really know about this.”
To say that Harris and trump mean the same thing for the Palestinians is outright nonsensical. Some of the Israeli ministers (notably Smotrich) have been very explicit about the fact that trump’s win, among other things, makes annexation of the West Bank much more likely.
There’s a lot of background that you kind of really have to be in the weeds to catch but if you’ve been reading Foreign Policy and others, you’d know that while the Biden administration ought to have done more, there were still some red lines (annexation, hitting Iranian oil/nuclear facilities etc.) With trump in charge, it’s unclear which if any red lines still exist.
It’s a humanitarian crisis but to claim that Harris and trump mean the same thing is as downright silly as you can get. Saying things that are patenly nonsensical makes you look pretty danged silly.
Sundial@lemm.ee 2 days ago
There’s a lot I don’t know true. But there’s a lot I know as well. For example, I know that in Israel Netanyahu is ridiculously unpopular at the moment and is under criminal investigation. I know the only reason he’s still in power is because of a group of hard-right fanatics in the Knesset like Ben Gvir. I know this group has been pushing for the complete eradication of the Palestinians for some time now, including annexing the West Bank, and they are finally seizing on the moment. I also know that they are the ones pushing for a regional war with Iran. I know that the only one in Netanyahu’s war council who vocally said this war shouldn’t continue was the recently fired Defence Minister Yoav Gallant and was replaced with someone who wanted to continue the war. I know that lobbying groups such as AIPAC have spent a ridiculous amount of money lobbying the American Senate and Congress to let Israel do what they want. I know that Biden has received more money from these groups than any other senator in history. I know that Harris has repeatedly said that “Israel has a right to defend itself” even as they slaughter their way through innocents. I know that Tim Walz has said that he supports Israels right to expand it’s borders as they escalate the conflict with Lebanon and Israel. I know that Harris chose to campaign with war hawks like Liz Cheney in an effort to win Republican voters while ignoring a lot of Democrat voters.
You started this thread by implying that voting for Harris would have saved the Palestinians. I’m telling you that everything points to her not doing a dam thing. You want to sit there and talk about how maybe she would have talked them down from creating a regional war with Iran? Sure, go for it buddy. Maybe she would have. But don’t sit there and pretend like she, or the majority of Democrats, actually cared enough to stop Israel from performing their little genocide. Or the invasion of Lebanon for that matter. If they did, they would have done so by now. They chose to stick their head in the sand and pretend it wasn’t an issue. Meanwhile they literally lost all 7 of the swing states because of this attitude. The Arabs definitely made her lose Michigan, and there’s a strong case to be made that they could have helped her win Wisconsin and Pennsylvania.
Lauchs@lemmy.world 2 days ago
See, I think this is the issue. You’ve shared some of the very basics. Most explainer articles should (and do) include this info. And I think you’re confusing knowing a handful of basics with something approaching authority. Admittedly, I imagine you have given more context than most Tiktoks, so yay?
Here are a few other basics but that add context and illuminate the difference between Harris and trump:
About half of Palestinians live in the West Bank, which has basically been off limits for Israeli military incursions, despite the far right. In large part because of American red lines, Israel has mostly left the West Bank alone in this conflict.
The United State’s policy on Israel/Palestine has been to advocate for a 2 state solution (which the PLO has walked away from, repeatedly.) Donald already shred any pretense of supporting a 2 state solution when he recognized Jerusalem as capital of Israel. For the loudest and most loyal part of his base, the evangelicals, Israel must own all of its own territory in order to bring about the End Times. (yay.) So, there’s a definite possibility that trump actively encourages Israel to ramp up their move to a 1 apartheidish state and West Bank becomes Gaza without the restraint.
And yes, you might complain that Gaza is unrestrained but that’s pretty silly. Some 40k Palestinians have died, which is too many but at that rate, the war could go on for another half century and more than half the Palestinians would be around. (And of course, if you note that most of the casualties were in the first 4 months after Hamas murdered and/or raped more than a thousand civilians, and “only” ~ 10K have died since Februaryish, well, you should realize that’s a deaccelerating conflict.) Unfortunately, trump means that hard right/Bibi have a good chance of escalating things right back up. (The Biden administration has demanded more aid etc in exchange for continued support, something that’s highly unexpected from a trump administration.)
Meanwhile, somewhere between 2-3 million Palestinians, who don’t have the first world luxury to ignorantly declare things are the going to be the same, know how much worse things are about to get.
And of course on the American side, the notion that Harris would be able to override Biden while she’s VP is lunacy. Pray tell, when is the last time you saw a VP undermine their boss like that? (The closest I can think of was when Biden let slip that the administration was moving to codify gay marriage, but that’s not even close to the same ballpark.) Arguing for a radically different path while in office but without any authority is similarly nonsensical. (If the Harris administration would be different, that incentives Israel to go much harder now while they can and puts Biden into a no win scenario.)
Would I have liked the Democrats to do more? Absolutely. But to say that because Palestinians in Gaza are dying those in the West Bank should too suggests you are too ignorant to know the difference between Gaza and West Bank or too racist to care.
Finally, I’ll remind you that the original question was what can America do to prevent the situation from worsening. Electing Harris over trump is a no brainer move to prevent things from getting as bad as they can under trump. Then electing progressive Dems in the primaries so they can move Harris on this. With trump in power, the Democratic primaries and midterms are relatively meaningless and unlikely to help the Palestinians.
Sundial@lemm.ee 1 day ago
The West Bank is not off limits, it’s had incursions regularly. And Israel has tried to annex it in the past and was stopped by Trump, funnily enough. I guess we’ll find out if they can convince him this time. Don’t think for a second that the West Bank is some sort of off-limits zone. They’ll annex it when they can. Just like they will with the Golan Heights and all their other occupied territories. It’s how colonies function.
PLO, Hamas and any Palestinian are not in any way expected to respect Israel’s sovereignty or current borders. A 2 state solution will lead to nothing but more divisiveness and create more tensions. It’s ironic how we in the western nations like to preach about how we are all equal and things like religion and race don’t matter. How this is one nation and we are all equal. And then we turn around and preach about some kind of ham-fisted 2 state solution for another country halfway across the world to resolve a conflict that we enforced on them.
Those 2-3 million Palestinians are being killed and starving to death because of Biden’s spineless inaction. Not Trumps. Biden has paid for 70% of this conflict so far. Biden has allowed Israel to ban UN envoys and agencies such as the UNWRA. And all the other stupid bloodthirst crap that I’m too lazy and tired to write down that we both know happened. Don’t pretend that Biden or America had any intention of saving them.
I’d like to remind you that this 44K number is confirmed deaths only. Actual deaths are expected to be much higher, in the hundreds of thousands. Israel’s onslaught has not slowed down. Only the ability to report it has. All infrastructure including healthcare and their ability to dig through the rubble has been destroyed and journalists are not able to actually go in and report anything because Israel is killing them all in targeted assassinations. Don’t delude yourself into thinking they’ve slowed down.
Harris didn’t have to override Biden. She just had to take a firmer stance. Biden dropped out last minute due to his unpopularity. This should have been a massive sign that Harris needed to diverge from his path and make her own. But she didn’t, and Biden’s unpopularity weighed her down. On this topic and others.
A lot of Americans could have demanded that Biden and Harris to do more. You wanting to do more is irrelevant when you just accept it. You were too afraid of demanding more from your leaders when you had the most bargaining power out of fear of promoting Trump and in the end you handed Trump the white house, the senate, and congress. Because Democrats settled for mediocracy.
I’ll say it one last time. Harris had no intention of saving the Palestinians. That entire demographic was written off as an acceptable casualty in the name of international politics and foreign lobbying. She couldn’t even admit to say there was a genocide, but only that Israel has a right to defend itself. And then her VP nominee openly says that Israel has a right to expand it’s borders. She would have been better than Trump on virtually every other topic, but this one there is very little difference.
We’ve been going around in circles for some time so I’ll refrain myself from responding to you if you choose to. It’s clear neither of us are going to convince the other of anything. Just a note for the future, it’ll help if you didn’t reduce someone’s viewpoints as being childish or that they know only the basics when they’ve actually just pointed the series of events that led them to the conclusion they’ve articulated. I know you mean well but you just come across as condescending and dismissive.
Lauchs@lemmy.world 1 day ago
You say that but then go on to equate what’s happened in the West Bank with what’s happened in Gaza, which is downright insane. It’s like saying “I had a paper cut, not much different from being the victim in a Saw movie.” Like, you think it’s a coincidence they announced plans to annex just hours after the election? ffs
Admittedly, I do love the silliness of “Harris just had to have a harder stance.” Trying to picture how she’d campaign like that has kept me giggling for awhile. “So, do you oppose the current administration of which you are a part?” “No, I just… We need to do things differently.” “Are you making Biden a lame duck president in August? What other policies of his do you think are wrong? Do you think Biden doesn’t value Palestinians? Why do you think Biden won’t do this? If you disagree with your administration, why did you wait until you were a candidate to take a stand? Should foreign leaders just deal with you directly instead of bothering with Biden these days?” "Damnit guys, can we please just talk about Rampart? "
Goodness. I get that you want to care etc but you’re digging yourself into stranger and sillier positions. As you grow up, you’ll find it’s not just useful to admit you weren’t entirely correct, it’s actually a really mature response which people respect that. Doubling down on sillier and sillier claims just makes you and your side look foolish.