You absolutely do need soap. It literally causes bacteria to disintegrate, something you can’t do with water alone.
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ricecake@sh.itjust.works 5 days ago
Phrasing it like that is weird, but you don’t actually need soap. It just makes the oils and grime come off easier, so without it you just need to scrub more diligently.
If you’re cleaning yourself properly your skin is gonna be the same cleanliness afterwards either way. Cheap soap will dry your skin though, so use decent soap.
Cleaning regularly and effectively is the key, not the specifics. Soap just lowers the bar for effectiveness, and maybe adds “and also moisturize”.
Psythik@lemmy.world 4 days ago
ricecake@sh.itjust.works 4 days ago
The primary action that soap has for fighting bacteria is breaking down oils and making it easier for debris and bacteria to be removed. Less food for the bacteria, and faster removal.
Bacteria will be destroyed by this process, but that’s coincidental to why soap works and provides benefit.
It’s why we don’t tell people to wash their hands by squirting soap on them, spreading it around and then rinsing it off. The critical step is the mechanical action that facilitates removal of debris with running water.Yes, soap is necessary for hand washing because we need to maximize bacteria removal after defecation or before preparing foods or medical activities.
In the context of bathing however, you don’t need to sterilize your torso. You will also be rinsing your body far longer than you’re typically going to be washing your hands, which when combined with scrubbing results in a clean torso.
I’m not one of those people who’s opposed to using soap or anything, but that’s not the same as recognizing that it’s possible to wash and be clean without it.
addictedtochaos@lemm.ee 4 days ago
thats worng, you describe disinfectants, soap breaks the fatty bonds that stick the bacteria to your skin. so, while you whash your hands, these alive bactera are whashed down the drain.
ricecake@sh.itjust.works 4 days ago
Soap does destroy some bacteria, and a not insignificant portion. By destroying those fatty bonds the cellular membranes of many bacteria are destroyed, and many viruses denatured and rendered inert.
The removal is the primary action though, you are correct. Not all bacteria are destroyed by soap, which is why the leather, scrub, and scrub while rinsing steps are important to hand washing, since that mechanical action is what removes everything.
addictedtochaos@lemm.ee 3 days ago
thanks, thats certainly a good read! I wonder though why clinics don’t have soap bars; maybe thats not true, but is it not general knowledge that soap bars spread germs?
ah, you answered that as well, sorry. thanks!
angrystego@lemmy.world 4 days ago
There are different kinds of people with diffetent types of skin. Some people get so oily no amount of water and scrubbing can help. The residual oil is then great for cultivating bacteria and yeast, which are ok as natural skin microflora, but if there’s too many of them, they cause medical problems.
addictedtochaos@lemm.ee 4 days ago
the question is: are they sick and thus the skin is out of whack, or are they sick because the skin is out of whack?
angrystego@lemmy.world 4 days ago
The amount of oil your skin produces naturally is usually connected to genes and hormone levels. It’s ok to have more oily or drier skin. It’s diversity, everyone is built differently.
addictedtochaos@lemm.ee 4 days ago
no and yes to that; there are tall people and small people, but that is usually not a medical condition.
everyone is built the same. and certainly nobody is built to have life detrimental skin conditions; yes, severe gene defects exist. But if you are swaetting a lot and you stink like a skunk, there is a very good reason for it. and the reason is:
something is hindering homöostasis to work properly- and that is usually a thing you ingested but don’t need, or a thing you did not ingest, but need. plus toxin exposure.
ricecake@sh.itjust.works 4 days ago
Certainly. I’m not saying soap is bad by any means. It’s a tool for bathing just like any other. Not using soap to wash your body doesn’t imply unhygienic anymore than not using a scrub brush makes you unhygienic.
What matters is that you wash regularly, get rid of grime, dirt, excess oils and dead skin buildup.
There’s many paths to hygiene. For most people, the one with soap is the easiest and the only downside is “now moisturize”.Persistent advertising from cleaning product companies since the 50s have heavily pushed a level of cleaning and perfuming well beyond what’s actually necessary for hygiene.
My body wash company would like me to use a silver dollar sized portion. I get better results from a dime sized portion and a moderate firmness silicone brush.
addictedtochaos@lemm.ee 5 days ago
so thats why soap is one of the oldest cheical inventions : because you dont actually need it. pure luxury.
ricecake@sh.itjust.works 4 days ago
Did I say pure luxury, or did I say it makes it easier?
I did forget that something is obviously 100% vital and indispensable or entirely worthless and void of functionality.
Early soaps were used for the preparation of textiles rather than personal hygiene.
As early as we invented soap, we actually had the notion that festering in your own rancid body oils is bad far, far earlier. As such, we had ways of dealing with that well before we had soap and people didn’t just immediately switch.
So go ahead and use soap. I certainly do. But if you’re looking to have your mind blown, take a shower and just scrub your skin with a brush, loofah or the palm of your hand and be amazed when you still get clean. If you’re really grimey, you can do what the Romans did and rub yourself with olive oil and scrape it off with a scraper before doing that.
addictedtochaos@lemm.ee 4 days ago
now try doing that with hair. or your hands after vivisecting a corpse, and then delivering a baby. clean up feces and vomit, and then try to get rid of the smell without soap.
every farm worker that works with life stock knows what i am talking about.
ricecake@sh.itjust.works 4 days ago
You’re taking “it’s possible to be clean after bathing without soap” as a way stronger statement than it is.
Do you think I’m saying soap is bad?
No one is talking about hygienic hand washing practices for medicine, food prep, after defecation, or after being coated in tough substances.
We’re in a giant pile of people talking about routing bathing to prevent body odor and the skin issues caused by poor bodily hygiene.
Washing with running water and a scrubbing action is sufficient for that purpose for many people. Bathing without soap is not a guarantee that you will have BO, a rash, skin lesions, or acne.
The Africa point isn’t really the gotcha you think it is. Soap working better faster doesn’t mean that a lack of soap doesn’t work. As you said, when they didn’t have soap they still washed. People are generally interested in being clean, and pragmatic. They’ll clean themselves, and if something helps them get cleaner faster, they’ll use it.
And yup, that passage does document that the Roman empire eschewed soap for personal hygiene until roughly year zero.