Maybe not ‘good’ per say but it actually does make them civilized. Regardless of motivation, they are being polite/courteous, which is the definition of being civilized
Comment on Posting the shopping cart theory because people had questions in a separate thread
Redfox8@mander.xyz 1 month ago
Well the discussion started off ok before ending in a rabies infested rant against humanity! Talk about going off the rails!
Anyhow, many people return the trolley so they don’t look bad/feel guilty. That doesn’t necessarily make them ‘good’ or ‘civilised’ and therefore fit into the ‘being forced’ category through peer pressure. Does that make them ‘animals’ and ‘savages’ too?
Soulfulginger@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Redfox8@mander.xyz 1 month ago
I’d argue that doing something because of peer pressure is different to being taught or learning to be considerate, so what looks like considerate behaviour from the outside, may just be e.g. avoidance of guilt/judgement. It doesn’t necessarily equate to being civilized.
Plavatos@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
Maybe, but in addition it’s like a social fabric/contract. I don’t want carts everywhere dinging my car up or taking up spaces and because no one else wants that either we all (most of us) tacitly accept to return carts to avoid this problem.
Redfox8@mander.xyz 1 month ago
Ah but is that not peer pressure? You and others don’t want your cars damaged etc and therefore critisise people who leave carts around selfishly. This then creates a scenario where people may feel guilty or wish to avoid said critisism and put the cart away as a result.
I agree that social contracts exist, but only between those who accept them and are willing to make an effort for everyone and anyone. Those that do not return the cart are in effect rejecting that contract.
hswolf@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Living in a society requires you to accept some social contracts, it is not really a choice at some point.
To have 100% free will, not living in a society is a condition.
Redfox8@mander.xyz 1 month ago
But then who are the criminals and ‘bad’ people if not those that have rejected the contract? Life is never all or nothing, so there will be times when someone will abide by the contract, for whatever reason, and times when they wont. This discussion centres on the times that they don’t and assumes that is the option taken the majority of the time.
True, a society does demand sacrifice of free will, however it can be argued that there can never be 100% free will even if you’re a hermit in a cave 100s of miles from another human. E.g. “I want to stay in my cave all day today, but I can’t because I’ve run out of food.” Hunger removes the free will for that period of time.
figaro@lemdro.id 1 month ago
Here’s the thing - the people who don’t return their shopping carts even know that this is a test. If they did, their behavior would change. If you know about the test, it fundamentally voids the test. And that is what makes it valid. If there is no pressure, what do they do?
Redfox8@mander.xyz 1 month ago
But the ‘test’ is peer pressure, no? Which exists permanently in real life so there will always be a portion of people only returning the cart because of that.
PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca 1 month ago
Goodharts law in action
Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
Or you could just not judge strangers who are in a rush.
PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca 1 month ago
You can typically tell when someone is in the kind of rush that’d excuse being a jerk to others
Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
Theres lots of reasons someone might feel or be incapable of following all of the social norms. Good and bad reasons. Since we can’t know which is which at a glance its best to withhold judgment.
Although some cases are like 99% sure and you can totally judge their pants off all you want.
figaro@lemdro.id 1 month ago
As God, I temporarily relieve the souls who are currently in a rush from the consequences of failing the shopping cart test. They will be tested again, however, using seemingly innocuous daily items to prove if they belong in the good place.