Comment on Pademelon

• NielsBohron@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  But they are not human emotions, so to assign human emotions to animals is a misnomer.

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  • daddy32@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Until we have better understanding and dictionary for their emotions, using names of human emotions instead can be a good approximation.

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    • grrgyle@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I’m not even sure a shared taxonomy of human emotions is particularly accurate, given how differently people sense even nameable emotions.

      But they’re still valid emotions ofc, just kinda unknowable

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    • NielsBohron@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      using names of human emotions instead can be a good approximation

      It can be, but it can also be a gross misrepresentation. Outside of higher mammals, it seems safer to me to assume that their emotions are extremely dissimilar and human emotions are poor analogues at best.

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      • flicker@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        That does not mean they do not have value.

        Also I’m shocked we haven’t seen a snake person come and argue they get depressed.

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  • RubberElectrons@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    How do you know?

    My pets express themselves pretty clearly, despite having much more limited ability to communicate across species lines.

    I feel reasonably confident in stating that I believe animals are conscious, just to varying depths.

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    • NielsBohron@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      My pets express themselves pretty clearly, despite having much more limited ability to communicate across species lines.

      They express wants and needs, not emotions. Assuming that they have emotions that are the same as human emotions is anthropomorphization. They might have some analogous emotions, and boredom in a mammal might seem similar to human boredom, but where do you draw the line? Can a dog experience ennui? Can a cat experience a lack of fulfillment? Can a snake experience depression?

      I feel reasonably confident in stating that I believe animals are conscious, just to varying depths.

      I don’t disagree, but you can’t say that animals that evolved consciousness in completely different environments and with different senses and neurology would experience emotion in the same way as humans. Apes, sure, they are really close and probably the easiest argument for human emotions in non-human species, but other mammals get farther and farther from human experience and emotion, and it’s presumptuous of humans to assume that the experience emotions the same way. Read “What Is It Like to Be a Bat” for some of the philosophical and scientific issues with assigning human emotions to other mammals.

      And other intelligent animals that are further removed from humanity on the evolutionary chain would have even more alien emotions. Humans can feel empathy for an octopus or African Greys, but can either of those animals feel empathy for humans? What about curiosity? They seem curious, but how can we know if they experience curiosity that is anything like human curiosity?

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      • grrgyle@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        I think of that paper often, though I think it applies equally to other humans. Like I’ll never know how it feels to be Doug unless I fully become Doug, and thus lose my own perspective.

        Like how much of empathy is just projection?

        I feel like a lot of it. We can talk about similarities in physiological responses to events, but as far as the actual subjective “qualia” (I think I’m using the term correctly) 🤷‍♂️

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      • RubberElectrons@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Unfortunately I’ve got to disagree with you from the outset, they do in fact express emotions, having witnessed one of my pets feel less inclined to partake in activities he very much normally enjoyed when his compatriot of a different species eventually passed away due to age. That is one clear example I’ve observed on my own, several times in a couple of different species over the years (unfortunately).

        It’s a bit pedantic, in truth, to state that these animals don’t feel human emotions. Do all of us experience ennui for that matter? Envy, to the same level as one another? Which leads to a paradox of how one defines a conscious, human mind at all, if it were indeed based only on what emotions are present when presented with a similar stimulus.

        Further, I’m noticing that you’re focused on dancing around “are they human”, not “are they conscious”, a more interesting & insightful question. Unfortunately, I’ve noticed this tactic among people who don’t want to feel bad about eating other conscious beings. If you eat other passengers on this ship called earth, so be it, but avoid the cowardice that comes with assigning them lower value in a pseudo-intellectual manner.

        Do you think animals are capable of being curious, even when there’s no impetus for them to be? I certainly do.

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      • theluckyone@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        You state that animals are expressing wants and needs, not emotions, then ask questions that can only be answered by “we don’t know”.

        I’d sooner think you do not know the former, either.

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