People generally find it odd and unintuitive that it’s possible to use decimal notation to represent 1 as .9~ and so this particular thing will never go away. When I was in HS I wowed some of my teachers by doing proofs on the subject, and every so often I see it online. This will continue to be an interesting fact for as long as decimal is used as a canonical notation.
Comment on I just cited myself.
someacnt_@lemmy.world 1 week ago
Are we still doing this 0.999… thing? Why, is it that attractive?
Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 week ago
someacnt_@lemmy.world 1 week ago
Welp, I see. Still, this is way too much recurting of a pattern.
Tlaloc_Temporal@lemmy.ca 1 week ago
The rules of decimal notation don’t sipport infinite decimals properly. In order for a 9 to roll over into a 10, the next smallest decimal needs to roll over first, therefore an infinite string of anything will never resolve the needed discrete increment.
Thus, all arguments that 0.999… = 1 must use algebra, limits, or some other logic beyond decimal notation. I consider this a bug with decimals, and 0.999… = 1 to be a workaround.
Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 week ago
Please explain this in a way that makes sense to me (I’m an algebraist). I don’t know what it would mean for infinite decimals to be supported “properly” or “improperly”. Furthermore, I’m not aware of any arguments worth taking seriously that don’t use logic, so I’m wondering why that’s a criticism of the notation.
Tlaloc_Temporal@lemmy.ca 1 week ago
Decimal notation is a number system where fractions are accomodated with more numbers represeting smaller more precise parts. It is an extension of the place value system where very large tallies can be expressed in a much simpler form.
One of the core rules of this system is how to handle values larger than the highest digit, and lower than the smallest. If any place goes above 9, set that place to 0 and increment the next place by 1. If any places goes below 0, increment the place by (10) and decrement the next place by one (this operation uses a non-existent digit, which is also a common sticking point).
This is the decimal system as it is taught originally. One of the consequences of it’s rules is that each digit-wise operation must be performed in order, with a beginning and an end. Thus even getting a repeating decimal is going beyond the system. This is usually taught as special handling, and sometimes as baby’s first limit (each step down results in the same digit, thus it’s that digit all the way down).
The issue happens when digit-wise calculation is applied to infinite decimals. For most operations, it’s fine, but incrementing up can only begin if a digit goes beyong 9, which never happens in the case of 0.999… . Understanding how to resolve this requires ditching the digit-wise method and relearing decimals and a series of terms, and then learning about infinite series. It’s a much more robust and applicable method, but a very different method to what decimals are taught as.
Thus I say that the original bitwise method of decimals has a bug in the case of incrementing infinite sequences. There’s really only one number where this is an issue, but telling people they’re wrong for using the tools as they’ve been taught isn’t helpful. Much better to say that the tool they’re using is limited in this way, then showing the more advanced method.
That’s how we teach Newtonian Gravity and then expand to Relativity. You aren’t wrong for applying newtonian gravity to mercury, but the tool you’re using is limited. All models are wrong, but some are useful.
CertifiedBlackGuy@lemmy.world 1 week ago
Said a simpler way:
1/3= 0.333… 1/3 + 1/3 = 0.666… = 0.333… + 0.333… 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1 = 0.333… + 0.333… + 0.333…
The quirk you mention about infinite decimals not incrementing properly can be seen by adding whole number fractions together.
Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 week ago
I can’t help but notice you didn’t answer the question.
I’m sure I don’t know what you mean by digit-wise operation, because my conceptuazation of it renders this statement obviously false. For example, we could apply digit-wise modular addition base 10 to any pair of real numbers and the order we choose to perform this operation in won’t matter. I’m pretty sure you’re also not including standard multiplication and addition in your definition of “digit-wise” because we can construct algorithms that address many different orders of digits, meaning this statement would also then be false. In fact, as I lay here having just woken up, I’m having a difficult time figuring out an operation where the order that you address the digits in actually matters.
Later, you bring up “incrementing” which has no natural definition in a densely populated set. It seems to me that you came up with a function that relies on the notation we’re using (the decimal-increment function, let’s call it) rather than the emergent properties of the objects we’re working with, noticed that the function doesn’t cover the desired domain, and have decided that means the notation is somehow improper. Or maybe you’re saying that the reason it’s improper is because the advanced techniques for interacting with the system are dissimilar from the understanding imparted by the simple techniques.
barsoap@lemm.ee 1 week ago
If you hear someone shout at a mob “mathematics is witchcraft, therefore, get the pitchforks” I very much recommend taking that argument seriously no matter the logical veracity.
Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 week ago
Fair, but that still uses logic, it’s just using false premises. Also, more than the argument what I’d be taking seriously is the threat of imminent violence.
pyre@lemmy.world 1 week ago
i don’t think any number system can be safe from infinite digits. there’s bound to be some number for each one that has to be represented with them. it’s not intuitive, but that’s because infinity isn’t intuitive. that doesn’t mean there’s a problem there though. also the arguments are so simple i don’t understand why anyone would insist that there has to be a difference.
for me the simplest is:
1/3 = 0.333…
3×0.333… = 3×1/3
0.999… = 3/3
lightnsfw@reddthat.com 1 week ago
the problem is it makes my brain hurt
pyre@lemmy.world 1 week ago
honestly that seems to be the only argument from the people who say it’s not equal. at least you’re honest about it.
by the way I’m not a mathematically adept person. I’m interested in math but i only understand the simpler things. which is fine. but i don’t go around arguing with people about advanced mathematics because I personally don’t get it.
the only reason I’m very confident about this issue is that you can see it’s equal with middle- or high-school level math, and that’s somehow still too much for people who are too confident about there being a magical, infinitely small number between 0.999… and 1.
Tlaloc_Temporal@lemmy.ca 1 week ago
Any my argument is that 3 ≠ 0.333…
We’re taught about the decimal system by manipulating whole number representations of fractions, but when that method fails, we get told that we are wrong.
In chemistry, we’re taught about atoms by manipulating little rings of electrons, and when that system fails to explain bond angles and excitation, we’re told the model is wrong, but still useful.
This is my issue with the debate. Someone uses decimals as they were taught and everyone piles on saying they’re wrong instead of explaining the limitations of systems and why we still use them.
For the record, my favorite demonstration is useing different bases.
In base 10: 1/3 ≈ 0.333… 0.333… × 3 = 0.999…
In base 12: 1/3 = 0.4 0.4 × 3 = 1
The issue only appears if you resort to infinite decimals. If you instead change your base, everything works fine. Of course the only base where every whole fraction fits nicely is unary, and there’s some very good reasons we don’t use tally marks much anymore, and it has nothing to do with math.
pyre@lemmy.world 1 week ago
you’re thinking about this backwards: the decimal notation isn’t something that’s natural, it’s just a way to represent numbers that we invented. 0.333… = 1/3 because that’s the way we decided to represent 1/3 in decimals. the problem here isn’t that 1 cannot be divided by 3 at all, it’s that 10 cannot be divided by 3 and give a whole number. and because we use the decimal system, we have to notate it using infinite repeating numbers but that doesn’t change the value of 1/3 or 10/3.
different bases don’t change the values either. 12 can be divided by 3 and give a whole number, so we don’t need infinite digits. but both 0.333… in decimal and 0.4 in base12 are still 1/3.
there’s no need to change the base. we know a third of one is a third and three thirds is one. how you notate it doesn’t change this at all.
Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 days ago
After reading this, I have decided that I am no longer going to provide a formal proof for my other point, because odds are that you wouldn’t understand it and I’m now reasonably confident that anyone who would already understands the fact the proof would’ve supported.