Comment on So is Israel just going to finish Palestine off?

• SleezyDizasta@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  And Israel and the EU help Azerbaijan to continue ethnic cleansing of Armenians, in particular Israel by sending drones in exchange for Azerbaijani oil

  This is blatantly false. France and Greece, for example, explicitly supported Armenia and the rest of the EU and NATO was largely neutral except for Turkey because they were dealing with Covid lockdowns.

  The Kurdish identity was deliberately squashed by the Western imperialists France and UK when they drew the borders after the fall of the Ottoman empire

  This is true but the squashing of the Kurds didn’t start with the West nor did end there, they merely continued something that already existed. The Ottoman Empire and the Arab empires before it were all explicitly suppressed the Kurds.

  Turkey went into Cyprus when a western aided fascist Greek military junta government tried to take over Cyprus and make it part of Greece with ethnic cleansing against the Turks in Cyprus. Calling it an illegal occupation is again a western imperialist narrative ignoring the complicity in attempted ethnic cleansing or worse genocide by the Greek fascist military junta government of the time. In fact Turkey stepping in was pivotal to the fascist military junta falling apart and Greece returning to Democracy.

  Such embarrassing ignorance. This is from the very wiki article that you linked:

  In 1983 the Turkish Cypriot assembly declared independence of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Immediately upon this declaration Britain convened a meeting of the United Nations Security Council to condemn the declaration as “legally invalid”. United Nations Security Council Resolution 541 (1983) considered the “attempt to create the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is invalid, and will contribute to a worsening of the situation in Cyprus”. It went on to state that it “considers the declaration referred to above as legally invalid and calls for its withdrawal”.

  The international community condemns Turkey’s illegal occupation of Cyprus. There is a reason why no country on earth except for the occupier, Turkey, recognizes this fake puppet state as a country. Even Turkey’s other puppet, Azerbaijan, which is the most loyal of Turkey’s allies doesn’t recognize it.

  Not only is the international community unanimously against Turkey, but they also violated the Treaty of Guaranteed of 1960. This was a joint agreement between Turkey, Cyprus, Greece, and the UK regarding the protection and territorial integrity of Cyprus. Turkey was one four principal signatories and one of the three supposed protectorates of Cyprus, and they only signed the treaty a few years before their occupation.

  This is taken directly from the Treaty of Guarantee of 1960:

  **Article II. **

  Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom, taking note of the undertakings of the Republic of Cyprus set out in Article I of the present Treaty, recognise and guarantee the independence, territorial integrity and security of the Republic of Cyprus, and also the state of affairs established by the Basic Articles of its Constitution. Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom likewise undertake to prohibit, so far as con cerns them, any activity aimed at promoting, directly or indirectly, either union of Cyprus with any other State or partition of the Island. Article IV. In the event of a breach of the provisions of the present Treaty, Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom undertake to consult together with respect to the representations or measures necessary to ensure observance of those provisions.

  In so far as common or concerted action may not prove possible, each of the three guaranteeing Powers reserves the right to take action with the sole aim of • re-establishing the state of affairs created by the present Treaty.

  You can read the full treaty right here: peacemaker.un.org/…/CY GR TR_600816_Treaty of Gua…

  As you can see Turkey is in clear violation of this treaty. It is refusing to cooperate with the other protectorates of this treaty and it is directly violating Cyprus’ sovereignty and territorial integrity.

  But actually gets even worse because the Turkish speaking Cypriots want to reunite with their Greek neighbors and unify the island, and there are have been ongoing demonstrations by the native people there for DECADES against Turkish occupation:

  en.wikipedia.org/…/2011_Turkish_Cypriot_protests (50,000 to 80,000 people turned out, that’s about 1/3 of the 170,000 native Turkish speaking Cypriots) theguardian.com/…/rising-anger-with-turkey-drives… theguardian.com/…/erdogan-met-by-protests-from-tu… cyprus-mail.com/…/hundreds-of-turkish-cypriots-pr… apnews.com/…/europe-middle-east-government-and-po… apnews.com/…/Turkish-Cypriots-protest-Turkey's-'u…

  What does Turkey do in response to this very clear opposition from the native Turkish speaking Cypriots who want them to leave, respect the treaties they’ve signed, and want to unite with the rest of the island? That’s right Turkey sends in over 100,000 non native Turkish residents to occupy the island: assembly.coe.int/nw/xml/…/X2H-Xref-ViewHTML.asp?F…. www.mfa.gov.cy/mfa/Embassies/…/page74_en?OpenDocu…

  Which by the way is a clear violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention’s Article 49 which includes:

  Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.

  www.un.org/en/…/Doc.33_GC-IV-EN.pdf

  Calling Turkey’s illegal occupation of Northern Cyprus anything but that shows that you’re either a historically ignorant, a bootlicker, or an authoritarian extremist like a Marxist or Fascist. Though in your case, it’s probably all 3.

  So already in your first three points you are showing either a lack of understanding, or deliberately downplaying the effects of western imperialist rule and its continuation into today.

  I wonder how it feels to be confidentially incorrect. I can’t really tell if this a projection or just a lack of self awareness.

  Armenians are allies of Palestine as they understand that they are victim of the same forces. In particular the Israel-Azerbaijan axis shows that it is not about religion, but about classic imperialist motives of ressources, power and money.

  Actually this isn’t true. Israel and Armenia are pretty neutral towards each other. Armenia was the only country in West Asia, other than Israel, to not recognize Palestine as a country. Actually they only did so yesterday, and everybody sees this as a tit for tat for Israel signing that arms contract with Azerbaijan back in 2012 where they gave them drones and other military equipment (which the Azeri dictator Aliyev used against them in 2020) over the next few years in exchange for their oil (which makes up 40-60% of their oil imports) and having Azerbaijan and Turkey remain allies against Iran… but despite this there’s calls in Israel to recognize the Armenian genocide and talks in Armenia to buy Israeli weapons: …globes.co.il/…/article-armenia-mulls-procuring-i… thejc.com/…/why-israel-must-now-recognise-the-arm…

  Armenia used to be a strong Russian ally in hopes of having Russia protect it from Azerbaijan, and it’s big ally Turkey, a NATO member. However, when Azerbaijan attacked and Armenia invoked it’s defense clause, Russia refused to help. Not only that but it’s puppet Belarus, publicly came out in support Azerbaijan. Because of this Armenia has publicly announced it’s intent to withdraw from the CSTO and draw closer to the West, especially after France, Greece, and even the US (remember that Nancy Pelosi trip?) all showed support to Armenia over Azerbaijan. Which leaves Armenia in a very weird and complicated geopolitical situation. Trying to oversimplify their geopolitical situation is just stupid.

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  • rimu@piefed.social ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I've been reading your posts. You make excellent points very often, clearly drawing from a deep knowledge of the region.

    However continually calling people names and insulting their intelligence will tend to stop them from really hearing your message and just inflame the situation. You could just not type that stuff and then everything else you type would have more impact. It'd be a pity to waste all that effort.

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    • SleezyDizasta@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I sometimes get frustrated with the people I argue with and these stuff slip out. However, what you’re saying is a true and your criticism is valid. I’ll definitely keep this in mind. I appreciate your comment.

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      • rimu@piefed.social ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Yes your frustration is totally understandable. It is a very heated topic and a lot of bad faith arguments are thrown around.

        Sometimes I remind myself not to hope that the person I'm replying to will understand my reply or acknowledge that I'm right - instead I post my reply for the lurkers to read, who are far more numerous. The lurker has not publicly said anything so their ego is not fixed on defending their position and they are more likely to receive what I contribute with an open mind.

        With this wider context, the goal changes. When the target audience shifts to the readers then there is no longer a need to continue a long back and forth discussion (the person replying to me will never change their mind anyway!) once I have made I point clearly. It's ok if the other person has the last word if by having it they discredit themselves by demonstrating a closed mind - the lurkers will see it.

        I hope this helps.

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