Big point about changes to public discourse and insightful.
Comment on [Serious] Why do so many people seem to hate veganism?
Juice@midwest.social 6 months ago
I’m an ex vegan (about 5 years) so I’ve been on both sides if it. Here’s my opinion.
When I was a vegan it was very much a part of my identity. It was something that I thought about 2-3 times (at least) per day when I ate, and any time I went to buy food. I remember being actually insufferable about it for a long time and I’m pretty sure I’ve lost friends over it, being annoying and preach to a friend’s husband and then eventually just not getting invited back for game night. So people are definitely feeling burned/rejected/otherized by vegans who, if not just coming right out and saying it, strongly infer that you are a “bad person” for consuming even small amounts of animal products, or at least let you know that you’re being judged for it. As an ex-vegan I’ve experienced this myself.
On the other hand, non-vegans are also insufferable about food. My friend in college didn’t like cheese. Hated how it tasted, hated the way it felt in his mouth. But he loved pizza. He would often buy pizzas for everyone, with cheese on, pick the cheese off himself, and eat it without. I swear that every time he did this someone would say something about it, “what? You don’t like cheese? Why?!” I personally had to endure a lot of weird questions and looks, and comments when after volunteering for a whole day at a baseball field for my son’s team, and they served pizza after which I just refused. I just quietly didn’t get myself any, and people had like 20 questions about it. I didn’t even bring up that I was a vegan, I just said I wasn’t hungry, which was odd and apparently unacceptable.
Vegans and vegetarians also get judged for their diets, there are plenty of non-v people who will become like preemptively defensive about it, and let you know they think you’re weak and unhealthy. You get otherized and judged, even if you dont care what people eat and you just patiently say that its a personal choice, for health or the environment or whatever. This actually deepens the in-group acceptance/out-group rejection of everyone involved. The next time a vegan has to hear about their choices they’ll be less patient with the person asking; the next time that person eats an egg around a vegan and gets lectured, they’ll be less patient and around and around it goes.
I have theories about why this is, some of which maybe are apparent from what I’ve read. I think people do construct identities around consumer behavior, and they feel rejected when someone doesn’t share those same consumptive habits which they take for granted. I’ll get into it if anyone gives a shit.
But I think theres a problem with public discourse that encourages this kind of ingroup/outgroup good/bad acceptance/rejection, so much that it is implied in all discourse whether a vegan or not. This is the thing that drove me away from veganism: I think that vegans are right about a lot of things, but they can’t actually see the world for what it is, they can mostly only see through this lens. This is basically the same problem with liberals, conservatives, religious, atheist, whatever. Its the cult of the individual having eroded any experience of interconnectedness, even though we are interconnected. As such, people can’t see the world for what it really is, we can only see it from behind the fences of our specific camp.
zalgotext@sh.itjust.works 6 months ago
Very well put, and agreed on all points, especially the bit about how this sort of in-group/out-group behavior is not limited to food. Veganism/food opinions in general are particularly clear examples of it in action though.
I forget where I first heard this, so unfortunately I can’t give proper credit, but I once heard that we’d all get along better if people learned to say “that’s not for me” instead of “that’s disgusting”, and it’s really stuck with me. Like who cares if someone doesn’t like cheese on their pizza? Picking it off is hurting no one. It’s a food preference, it’s not that serious. Let people enjoy things the way they want to enjoy things. If it isn’t immoral or harmful, let people be. People doing things differently from you is not grounds for you to question or ridicule. Have some empathy, have some respect, have some semblance of open-mindedness, and let people live their lives, man
Teppichbrand@feddit.de 6 months ago
I get what you are saying and I agree with “thats not for me”. The difference to other personal preferences is that as a carnist, you are paying for literaly billions of our fellow earthlings being killed on an industrial scale. So many that it’s destroying our livelihood. So this is not a personal choice anymore, there are victims you do not notice, human and non-human. A lot of victims, 1.9 Million chickens killed in Germany every day.
Once you realise this and you have had the courage to really look beyond the word slaughter with your own eyes, see the inconceivable suffering, this becomes something I can not push out of my sight anymore. And then you realise it’s everywhere. So what to you do?
AchtungDrempels@lemmy.world 6 months ago
That’s a really hungry carnist.
Juice@midwest.social 6 months ago
Right, I agree, have empathy and respect, open mindedness. But without getting into it too deep, you know how do I empathize or respect others when often we don’t empathize or respect ourselves? It’s this involuntary and constant process of turning out and externalizing. Please don’t consider this a call out, just an illustration because I know you don’t mean it this way, but by the end of your thought process you are like out grouping some imagined person who is doing this thing, creating an in group between you and I, and others who still behave this way. And I can be as cognizant as I want about this, but I also commit to these groups, and I have recent examples of this toward ideological groups I encounter in my political organizing. People who I used to not have a problem with, I now am extremely suspect of, because this was done to me. Its like baked into our language, or the ways in which we derive meaning. And maybe to some extent its unavoidable, or at least will be until some severe cultural shift happens that changes our ontology and language.
But many people have noticed, from all walks of life, you will hear, “we have never been more divided.” And yeah sometimes you hear this from people who probably don’t have our best interests at heart. But this campism has only increased since, idk, Trump? COVID? The neoliberal turn of the late 70s early 80s? Who can say. But if that’s true, and this phenomenon has increased over time, then maybe it can decrease as well. I hope so. There’s a lot of changes that need to happen to society, and quickly, but without that respect and empathy you talk about, I worry about what might happen to people. This out grouping can quickly turn into dehumanization and worse if not checked. And I don’t know what to do there except at least try and model that behavior and try and discuss it when I can.
zalgotext@sh.itjust.works 6 months ago
Yeah, I’m definitely cognizant of that, but I don’t necessarily see it as a bad thing. For me it fits into the “don’t tolerate intolerance” principle. It seems paradoxical, but the way I’ve come to understand it is that sometimes the in-group/out-group divides are unavoidable, but as long as the in-group is tolerant of everything other than intolerance, they’re more “in the right” from a moral sense. If the in-group ends up getting all the people in the out-group to join the in-group, the only group left will ideally be tolerant.
Juice@midwest.social 6 months ago
Yeah you’re right it’s okay to have differences and preferences, its the moralizing of them rather than accepting and trying to find commonalities across the divides.