Comment on Israelis critical of the government
Blamemeta@lemm.ee 1 month ago
Half the problem from a western civilian perspective is we just dont know the truth. We know Hamas massacres civilians, sets up torture rooms in hospitals, pretend to be noncombatants, and has a quality propaganda network. We know the IDF has at a very minimum killed civilians, and invaded homes, and maybe a lot more, but how much is propaganda and how much is truth?
We just dont know, and frankly Im frustrated that we dont know.
amerika@annihilation.social 1 month ago
wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee 1 month ago
Since most the information out of Gaza is from Hamas, we know most of it is false.
Israel tries to minimize the amount of civilians killed. Hamas tries to maximize the amount of civilians killed.
Hamas needs to go.
BobaFuttbucker@reddthat.com 1 month ago
Are you suggesting Hamas is bombing Palestinians?
wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee 1 month ago
Hamas uses the civilian population as shields and fights in populated areas.
BobaFuttbucker@reddthat.com 1 month ago
Hamas doesn’t force Israel to bomb them, and Israel is capable of choosing not to bomb innocent civilians.
Blamemeta@lemm.ee 1 month ago
BobaFuttbucker@reddthat.com 1 month ago
Wait, so your argument is that an explosion in October (the cause of which - by your own source - is not yet known) justifies a 7 month killing spree by the Israeli government? Cool cool.
realcaseyrollins@noauthority.social 1 month ago
@Blamemeta @Bongo_Stryker I'm pro #Israel, and support their side of the conflict, but there are some small (but significant) cases in which the #IDF very likely violated international law/the #GenevaConventions; using #WhitePhosphorus, and the siege on #Gaza, as well as potentially the targeting of the #WCK truck. Targeting #Rafah probably looks like a genocidal tactic, but to be fair #Hamas militants are likely there.
wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee 1 month ago
White Phosphorus is legal to use. Not sure why people keep repeating it isn’t.
White Phosphorus is used to create a smoke screen to allow your troops to move around. It is only illegal when used as a weapon and you don’t try to minimize civilian casualties.
Israel goes beyond their responsibility to minimize civilians casualties.
realcaseyrollins@noauthority.social 1 month ago
@wintermute_oregon Hmm. I never saw any clear confirmation as to why it was used during the war in the one case it was discovered.
wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee 1 month ago
Smoke. In an urban environment you need lots of smoke to move around. Otherwise you have to use more force which can risk civilians.
realcaseyrollins@noauthority.social 1 month ago
@Blamemeta @Bongo_Stryker Thing is, violating international law and the rules of war are not the same as committing a genocide. Genocide is a very specific claim that #Israel does not meet the standard for. It's interesting to note as well that despite the (albeit minority) amount of American more mad at #Israel than #Hamas, #Hamas has done far, far worse in the #Israel #Hamas war than the #IDF has.
Has the #IDF raped civilians? I think now.
wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee 1 month ago
Has the IDF raped civilians? Shit questions. Most likely yes, some soldiers have but the IDF as a whole does not.
American soldiers have raped women. That doesn’t mean the US supports it. We punish those who do.
realcaseyrollins@noauthority.social 1 month ago
@wintermute_oregon No no no not #IDF soldiers; the #IDF, as a military group, as part of a militant campaign. People tend to do whatever when they're off duty, that doesn't exactly count.
realcaseyrollins@noauthority.social 1 month ago
@Blamemeta @Bongo_Stryker *I think not
amerika@annihilation.social 1 month ago
@realcaseyrollins @Blamemeta @Bongo_Stryker
Good summary. The worst we have IDF on is hitting the wrong targets while the Palestinians used them as human shields.
Bongo_Stryker@lemmy.ca 1 month ago
For months, any criticism of Israel’s government was met with accusations of antisemitism, accusations of being “pro-hamas”. Now that I am pointing out there is criticism of Israel’s government coming from Israeli citizens inside Israel, the discussion I see generated avoids the actual topic and goes like: Well Hamas is very bad and has committed terrible atrocities and the IDF may have made a few regrettable mistakes but ackchyually white phosphorus is not illegal…
Why is it so hard for anyone to admit there could be valid reasons to be unhappy with Israel’s government - reasons that are not antisemitic or pro-hamas, neither marxist nor nazi, but practical reasons relating to good governance not only for Palestine but Israel itself?
Bongo_Stryker@lemmy.ca 1 month ago
Foolish Bongo, you will never receive any admission of wrongdoing by Israel from those who adore her. They demand to hear the condemnation of hamas.
Therefore, yes ok, I condemn Hamas. Fuck hamas! Let them all be separated from this world and sent for divine judgment.
But this isn’t enough. You must also agree that Israel should expand her borders.
You must also agree that there is no such thing as a Palestinian, it is a media invention.
You must agree that a two state solution is unthinkable, can never happen, at any cost.
You must agree that the lives of any non-jewish person in east Jerusalem, in the west bank, in Gaza are worthless.
You must agree they should all be killed, men women and children because they are all hamas.
You must agree that anyone who does not accept these prepositions as absolute truth and fact is antisemitic, is a nazi, is also hamas.
Well that’s going too far for me and I can’t agree with that.