Comment on If you want communism, you can start a commune
Ibaudia@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Giving you a real answer, there are many barriers stopping people from making communes in capitalist nations. There are problems with land and property ownership, financial integration with the capitalist system, taxes, and pressures from anti-communists.
Communist nations, as compared to small local communes, have the advantage when it comes to resource allocation, bureaucracy, and stability due to scale.
Basically, starting a small commune isn’t really that practical when you’re surrounded by capitalism on all sides, and isn’t really what people mean when they talk about a communist society. You can’t really have the labor distribution, property, or means of production structures Marxists talk about without a central government at the scale of a nation.
DreamlandLividity@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Then does the nation have to be a certain size? There are plenty of micronations in the world. Tuvalu has only around 12,000 people. Does socialism not work in such nations?
As for taxes, what is the issue there? Surely even in communism, you would have to give some portion of production to the government to build infrastructure, run emergency services etc.
Ibaudia@lemmy.world 2 months ago
The size of a nation doesn’t inherently determine the success of socialism. There have been historical examples of relatively small nations with socialist-inspired policies and economic structures that achieved positive outcomes. I was moreso making the point that nations are different from communes existing within capitalist nations on a variety of levels.
Socialist principles can be applied at different scales. Micronations and small nations can focus on social programs, resource distribution, worker-ownership, etc., regardless of their size.
For taxes, while infrastructure and services are vital, a truly communist system wouldn’t depend on taxation in the traditional sense. The idea is for the community to directly produce the goods and services it needs. Again, this runs into conflict when a commune needs to exist in a capitalist framework.
Commune members would contribute their labor and skills, and in return, directly receive what they need. This minimizes the need for a complex tax system as seen in capitalist societies.
Regarding financial integration, a communist system wouldn’t rely on traditional capitalist financial models focused on competition. Trade and international exchange would likely be based on cooperation and needs fulfillment instead of pure profit motives.
The challenge lies in managing the complexity of large-scale bartering or exchange systems on an international level, but it’s not necessarily impossible. For a small commune in a capitalist nation, though, I can’t see that ever happening.
For land, the issue isn’t about violently seizing property, but rather transforming the concept of ownership itself. In a communist model, the means of production would be collectively owned by the community.
For the legal stuff: you’re right! Legal structures exist to support collective ownership (co-ops, land trusts, etc.). The issue is how those structures interact with a dominant capitalist system and its legal frameworks.
For anticommunist interference, yes it is illegal but when has that ever stopped anyone from harassing their political opponents?
Hope that answers most of your questions!
DreamlandLividity@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Ok, so its not size that is the issue.
Yes, I get that is the point you want to make but I don’t believe you, since it sounds way too convenient. “I can’t show you a small scale proof of concepts because evil capitalism exists.” So my question is, what exactly are the issues? Concrete examples.
Ok sure, but that does not prevent a commune from existing. If it can produce enough economic value, it does not matter if it builds infrastructure itself or pays taxes. Just treat the commune like a micro-nation that can’t produce firetrucks and bulldozers and has to obtain them from abroad by bartering using money as the medium.
Why? International trade is already pretty much barter facilitated by money. Why couldn’t a commune treat the surrounding system the same as a foreign nation from trade perspective?
So a communist nation can’t peacefully coexist and cooperate with any other system? Doesn’t sound very robust.
What exactly? What laws would we need to change to make this possible?
Sure, it can’t stop it but it can limit it. Again, if your system falls apart due to little push back, its not a very robust system.