You are attempting to mask a highly subjective, culturally specific worldview as an objective universal truth. Your entire argument rests on a foundation of ethnocentrism and philosophical contradictions, projecting your modern consumer habits onto the entirety of the human race.
You claim you are not confusing biological utility with objective truth, but then immediately define your standard for truth as: “for me, if your truth gets you harmed or worse, it’s wrong.” That is not objective truth. That is utilitarian pragmatism. Gravity is an objective truth; if you jump off a cliff, it will pull you down whether it harms you or not. Reality does not bend to accommodate human comfort, preference, or survival.
By declaring that reality is only what you can “sense and experience in my lifetime,” you have completely abandoned objectivity. You are arguing for a self-serving, subjective moral framework while simultaneously trying to enforce it as a universal law for all of “humanity.”
The most glaring flaw in your argument is your claim that owning purchased things is something humans have done “for the majority, if not the entirety of our existence.” This is profoundly ethnocentric and historically illiterate.
You are taking a highly specific, modern, Western capitalist paradigm, the individual commodification and perpetual ownership of goods, and projecting it backward across all of human history and across all global cultures. For the vast majority of human existence, property was often communal, tied to land stewardship, or dictated by complex systems of patronage and social hierarchy. The idea that an individual has an inherent, natural, almost biological right to permanently own the intangible intellectual labor of another human being for a one-time transaction is a recent cultural anomaly.
When you claim that changing a software licensing model sets an “awful precedent” for humanity, you aren’t defending humanity. You are aggressively defending the modern Western consumer culture you happen to live in, mistaking your local economic norms for the laws of nature.
Finally, you are completely misusing the concept of nihilism to dismiss a legally and structurally accurate argument. Pointing out that a shift from physical to digital software distribution has zero impact on biological human survival is not “nihilism.” It is basic perspective.
Acknowledging that the universe does not care about End-User License Agreements does not mean “nothing matters.” It simply means that your inconvenience over a corporate software transition is not a cosmic moral tragedy. You can find profound meaning in human achievement, art, and philosophy without holding onto the delusion that you are morally entitled to permanently own the digital labor of a development team.
You are perfectly entitled to your subjective preference for physical media. But stop pretending your consumer inconveniences are objective moral imperatives for the human species.
binux@sh.itjust.works 1 day ago
Woah there, ethnocentrism is quite the claim pal. Especially when you have absolutely nothing to back it up with aside from my own personal opinions (which I certainly never claimed to be entirely objective despite what you seem to be asserting).
Now admittedly, I am defining objective truth through my own interpretative lens. However, you’re not exactly an angel yourself in that regard, which is precisely why I’m doing it in the first place.
To make my point clear, I’ll give a few examples of what you yourself had written earlier:
Despite my own opinions on the matter of whether the universe “cares” or not, this is an inherently subjective assertion. There’s no way to prove such a metaphysical claim.
Again, blatantly subjective. On what grounds is the shift to digital-only media not harmful? And even if you were to back it up, it would still be subjective regardless. There’s nothing materially concrete about any of your potential evidence. I realize I’m somewhat undermining my point here, but for the sake of demonstrating the folly of your handwaving of any viewpoint aside from your own with accusations of “ethnocentrism”, “philosophical contradictions”, “historical illiteracy”, etc., I’ll let it slide.
On that topic (of historical illiteracy) my point wasn’t that people could own goods for the majority of human existence and that was that. No, my point was that there has never been a system quite like this where consumers have been sold media under the impression of obtaining ownership when that isn’t the case at all. You can make all the claims you want about the past, but specifically regarding media it’s never been like this. You wouldn’t see digital enshittification happening in 10 000 BCE.
You’re also being bizarrely presumptuous of my understanding of property and how it’s been understood in the cultural zeitgeist. I’m inclined to believe you’re being disingenuous but for the sake of charity I’ll permit you the benefit of the doubt. I’m well aware that the concept of guaranteed individual rights (particularly from liberalism), especially with regards to property, are a very recent development in relation to human existence. My viewpoint comes from my own disgust with corporate entities dicking over people who by no means deserve it under any rational perspective regarding our current laws and establishments.
Additionally (and I know you know this), human society has never been so cut and dry as property having been strictly communal for the entirety of our existence until, say, 20 millennia ago. Obviously we’ve been in anarchistic societies for quite a long time as a species, but it’s not like you couldn’t own anything. That’s just ridiculous, even without modern liberal beliefs. Barter systems have been a thing for essentially forever (trading labour for labour by way of abstract ideals, far from a “recent cultural anomaly”), and aside from very select and overall arbitrary differences, humans in the Stone Age were essentially identical to ourselves now, ideas and all, however early in development said ideas were. This isn’t Plato’s Cave.
Forgive me, but I find this part in particular kind of funny if not really strange. First of all, it’s not as simple as “changing a licensing model”, and since I know that and I know you know that, I’m not even going to bother addressing that. What really gets me is this idea that I’m mistaking my culture for the “laws of nature”.
Says who? You? Because I certainly didn’t say anything to even suggest that. I’m certainly not “aggressively” defending it either, that’s quite a silly term to use for a dumb back-and-forth on the internet. I’m well aware there’s a difference between reality and culture (clearly).
It seems you’re mistaking my consideration of contemporary society and its innate relevance as a treatment of its doctrines as dogma. Which really couldn’t be further from the truth. I’m not a cult member of “Western society” as you seem to be weirdly painting me as. I merely believe that if people can reasonably come to expect one thing from society, and they get none of that as was promised, it’s hypocritical and thereby wrong. Now you can make all the claims you want about it being a “cultural concept”, but that’s theory, not reality. Theory doesn’t improve anything on its own, especially when applied so pretentiously.
Anyway, because your arguments are inherently broken by means of your assertion of the “subjectivity of my beliefs”, while you literally assert your subjective beliefs at the same time as reality, your entire point is just futile. You can’t deny the importance of a culture and its influence on the world while at the same time asserting your own beliefs as the singular truth. That’s nothing short of hypocrisy.
TimothyOilypants@lemmy.ca 1 day ago
You are cornered, so you are retreating into semantics. Let’s strip away the philosophical tap-dancing and look at the actual mechanics of your argument, which completely collapses under its own weight.
First, claiming that observing the universe’s indifference is a subjective metaphysical claim is absurd. It is the exact opposite. It is the empirical observation that inanimate matter and physical laws do not possess moral agency. Gravity and entropy do not have feelings or ethical standards. Acknowledging that physical reality lacks a moral compass is not a subjective belief; it is the baseline of objective science.
Second, you challenged the assertion that a shift to digital-only media has zero impact on human survival, calling it blatantly subjective. No, it is a biological fact. Human survival requires caloric intake, hydration, and protection from the elements. A corporation revoking access to an entertainment license does not deprive you of any of those things. To equate the loss of a digital game with actual harm or a threat to human prosperity is a massive category error.
Third, you argue that consumers were sold media under the impression of obtaining ownership and that society broke a promise to them. Who exactly made that promise? The software industry certainly did not. For forty years, practically every piece of commercial software came with an agreement explicitly stating it was licensed and not sold. The fact that millions of consumers ignored the legal text because they liked the feeling of holding a plastic cartridge does not mean a promise was broken. It just means the public was willfully ignorant of the transaction. A consumer’s failure to read the manual does not constitute a moral failing on the part of the creator.
Fourth, you bring up Stone Age barter systems to prove that ownership has always existed. No one ever argued that physical property did not exist. You could own a physical tool in the Stone Age, just like you can own a physical plastic case today. But you cannot permanently own the ongoing, continuous labor of another human being. Modern digital ecosystems require ongoing human labor to maintain. Demanding perpetual ownership of a live digital service for a one-time fee is demanding uncompensated labor.
You accuse me of asserting subjective beliefs as reality, but my entire argument is built on documented copyright law, the physical realities of server maintenance, and the historical text of software licenses. You are the only one arguing from a place of emotion. You are upset because the illusion of physical media ownership was shattered, and instead of accepting the legal and technical reality of how digital infrastructure actually works, you are trying to frame a standard licensing dispute as a hypocritical betrayal of human rights. It is not. You just didn’t read the terms of service.
binux@sh.itjust.works 1 day ago
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Give me one reason to prove that the universe is apathetic. For context of my bias, I consider myself agnostic, so I really don’t lean either way regarding that question.
Regardless, you won’t be able to. Which makes your entire argument inherently invalid.
So it’s funny that you need to accuse me of being “backed into a corner” to get out of dodge of your own weird and contradictory standpoint. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it, I suppose. I can’t imagine you’re very satisfied being utterly at odds with every spooky idea in your eyes like that though, instead of seeking common ground in a more courteous manner, or at least agreeing to disagree.
Additionally, and I realize this is the area you’re trying to goad me into, but there’s really nothing “emotional” per se about where I’m coming from here. I certainly have attachments to my beliefs and that gives me motivation to defend them, but at the end of the day you’re really just providing entertainment to me. Silly, if not dumb entertainment, but still. Conversely, and not to go “no, you”, but there’s definitely a lot of emotionally-charged rhetoric you seem to be leaning on with your groundless accusations and whatnot from whatever comes to mind (e.g. your initial sentence).
Anyway I’m going to leave you to your gaping void of pseudo-theory now because it’s starting to feel like I’m reading ChatGPT prompts with each of your responses (whether you’re actually using AI or not I really don’t care, it’s just getting monotonous). As I’ve said several times now you’re trying to assert your own framework of ideas as fact while simultaneously labelling me as solely doing so. Likely somewhat of a form of projection on your part, though I won’t psychoanalyze you too hard, nor will I claim it as objective for the sake of consistency. Thanks for the break in my doomscroll in any case.
TimothyOilypants@lemmy.ca 1 day ago
You are demanding I prove a negative to win an argument about software licensing. That is the exact moment you lost the plot.
I do not need to prove the universe is apathetic. The burden of proof rests entirely on the person trying to claim that physical reality possesses a moral framework. Until you can demonstrate that a black hole, a carbon atom, or a quasar holds ethical standards, the scientific baseline is inanimate indifference. But more importantly, it is a massive red herring. The metaphysical state of the cosmos has absolutely zero bearing on the legal mechanics of copyright law and your failure to read a Terms of Service agreement.
You claim you aren’t backed into a corner, yet your final response completely abandoned the actual topic of the debate. You stopped talking about server maintenance, live-ops infrastructure, and intellectual property because you had no technical or legal counter-arguments left. You retreated into metaphysics and tone policing because the mechanical reality of digital ecosystems completely dismantled your claim to permanent ownership.
As for accusing me of sounding like an AI prompt; if presenting structured, coherent logic without emotional rambling reads as artificial to you, that says a lot more about the quality of internet discourse you are accustomed to than it does about my arguments. When someone runs out of actual points, they attack the formatting.
You can claim you are just entertained and doomscrolling to save face, but you spent this entire thread trying to frame a standard licensing dispute as a hypocritical betrayal of humanity, only to end up arguing about whether the universe cares about you.
Enjoy your doomscrolling. The End User License Agreement remains legally binding whether you philosophically agree with it or not.
Enjoy your perpetual victimhood and expect no further response from me.