Comment on .ml has got to be the only place on earth where I'd get downvoted for a comment like this
TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 2 days agoAnd now, when writing this… Argh. Uyghurs. You absolutely cannot compare it to what Nazis did, but if you compare it to what other fascist countries died then yes, that’s quite some consequence.
You could also compare it to things “democratic” countries have done. America for one has had decades of segregation based on ethnicity and has had concentration camps for ethnic minorities, not to mention a genocide against indigenous peoples.
If we are using that to tell how much like Nazis a nation is plenty of democratic countries are a lot closer to Nazi Germany than China.
In the end, tankie is a type of a socialist, and one becomes socialist through a will to do good. Being a tankie is some EXTREMELY fucking ill-advised way to do good, because the result is indeed very very bad.
I’m not claiming that China has never done anything that I don’t agree with, however if we are measuring their results, it’s hard to conclude that it’s ill advised. In the last 40 years China has lifted nearly a billion people out of extreme poverty and has done so with out endless cycles of wars.
Meanwhile democratic nations in the West have seen more of their citizens slide into to poverty while killing millions of people in forever wars.
But in the end, what’s being done to Uyghurs is just horror. Being thrown into a concentration camp and being subjected to various inhumane experiments is already on a very high level of evil to have to experience.
Again, I don’t agree with a lot of the CCP policies. That being said, I do think there are some exaggerations when it comes to the Uyghur people, though based on their own information I would say there is a pattern of ethnic prejudice
That being said, even if we use the most inflammatory information from western media and utilize the high estimate of 1.8 million ethnic minorities being put into reeducation camps. That’s less than 1/6th of the Uyghur population in China. Less than the 2 million people currently incarcerated in the US, of those whom nearly 40% are from an ethnic minority who only make up around 10% of the total population.
This is not my attempt of a whataboutism, just trying to illiustrate that unjustifiable national policy is not unique to socialist or democratic capitalist governments.
Lehmuusa@nord.pub 2 days ago
Yes, you can. Generally, any country where an ideology goes over individuals’ well-being tends to do this shit. China does, USA does as well. Not terribly surprising.
1/6 on camps is a LOT. It does fulfill the definition of genocide.
What makes you think that USA is relevant here? I am not from USA. USA is not a part of China, nor the other way around.
Show me a democratic country where this happens. You’re giving me China and USA. And there’s also the Russia. But is there actually a democratic country where people are handled they way countries such as USA and China do?
TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 2 days ago
My point was that any specific economic policy or government style does not necessarily dictate the outcomes of the people it is in charge of. If this is similar to your belief, then I would question why you elected to make a statement that seemed to limit itself to a binary of fascist/“tankies”.
Again, that is using the most hyperbolic estimate. Also, I do not think temporarily holding a percent of an ethnicity in an internment camp is enough to call something a genocide. It’s definitely not great, and is systemic ethnic prejudice, but I don’t know if that would qualify as a genocide.
The US put 80% of Japanese Americans in interment camps during ww2 and I’ve never heard that referenced as a genocide.
I think I explained in the last paragraph of my original argument that it was to provide relevant comparison of similar examples that were not fascist nor “tankies”.
In your claim you said that you shouldn’t be a tankie because it led to bad/evil results. Would you also claim you shouldn’t be a liberal democracy because it leads to bad/evil results?
First of all…how is the US not a democratic country? It may not be a great one, but it still has free and fair elections. If the US is not a liberal democracy… What is it?
Secondly, there have been plenty examples of democratic countries having unjustifiable foreign and domestic policies.
Just off the top of my head Canada has a brutal history of suppressing their native inhabitants that endures to the modern age. Both france and the UK also had interment camps during ww2. The UK committed a genocidal famine against ireland and Bengal as a democratic nation. Most of the worst aspects of colonialism were conducted after European powers transitioned out of absolute monarchies into democracies. South Africa and Israel both conducted an apartheid state in modern times, one going further into a genocide of Palestinians.
And more than likely the nation you currently live in has materially or militarily aided the US in one of their unjustifiable wars in the middle East.
theolodis@feddit.org 2 days ago
Ok, you’re giving me the US, Canada, the UK and France, but can you give me one REALLY democratic country??? /s
TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 1 day ago
His actual response was just as bad
So your honor, my defense is an appeal to ignorance with a healthy side of “Nu-uh”.
Also, the US is totally not a democratic government, but Israel…
Tonava@sopuli.xyz 1 day ago
Do you really want to defend holding any percentage of people in an internment camp based on their ethnicity? And this applies to USA too. Holding anyone on an internment camp is bad enough, but because of ethnicity?! That’s not only racism, that’s fast track to genocide if it’s not already happening
TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 1 day ago
Did I say I was defending that… Or did I just say it wasn’t considered a genocide? Pretty sure I started the argument by saying i didn’t agree with all CCP policy, and that the treatment of the Uyghur people would be systemic ethnic prejudice, which is self evidently bad.
Again, my point isn’t to nullify all criticism, just to point out that there seems to be a double standard when people speak about the same crimes carried by both democratic and socialist governments.
Lehmuusa@nord.pub 1 day ago
Because that is the subject we are talking about. We are talking about to what extent tankies are similar to fascists.
Temporarily, not. But anything that forces people to have to lose their national or thnic identity is genocide. We are not talking about any temporary internment camps here. (I’m not sure if temporary internment camps based on ethnicity have ever even existed…)
If they do not support using a country’s military against its own population nor are fascists, how are they relevant to this discussion that is intentionally limited to those two groups?
Uh… Read the news maybe? WTF kind of question is this? How is it a democratic country?
No idea of what’s been going on in Canada. POW camps don’t really count. Nor any camps where the goal is not the removal of an ethnicity or nationality from from a region. The question about Israel’s democracy is an interesting one that I need to ponded more!
TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 1 day ago
And my rebuttal proves that those qualities are not really unique to fascism nor “tankies” and are therefore redundant. You could have just as easily said governments do governmental things and would have made just as valid as a point.
And what proof is there that they are loosing their ethnic or national identity?
Secondly even the most inflammatory citations about the interment camps do not claim they are indefinite, mostly claiming that they are held for 10 months to two years.
Lastly, interning Japanese Americans during ww2 is an example of temporary internment camps based on ethnicity.
I provided several examples of democratic nations using their military against their own citizens. I have also already explained the reason it was relevant was because it disproves your claim.
Lol, do you know how a democratic nation is defined? Any country that derives it’s authority through elected representatives is a democratic nation. Just because those democratically elected officials are conducting themselves in a way that you or I do not agree with does not mean it’s not a democracy.
Democracy does not mean “only does good” it’s an organizational hierarchy that reflects the political majority.
Ahh, so ignorance is your defense…great.
Wut? You do know that one of the main reasons for Nazi concentration camps were for pows…
Is your claim that democratic countries are morally just in any action so long as they aren’t utilized solely for ethnic cleansing? Also… That would preclude the Uyghur internment camps as they are not being removed from China or Xijiang.