plumbers exist, so do people named starting with M or J. so do people who walk around and yap about end of the world and/or resurrection. and even people who listen to them.
however…
plumbers that can jump 5 times their own height? people named with M that grow 2x when they eat a mushroom? people that turn water into wine? that’s a completely different story.
sentence like “Jesus did not exist” always need to be interpreted in context. when someone says it in context of religion or adjacent, and you respond by “but people called Jesus existed” then you’re just being obtuse.
or rather, playing Motte and Bailey: f…ing OF COURSE you can defend the that Bob—different one than in the story, in particular, a tigerless Bob—exists, but that’s not what is being disputed. what’s being disputed is the existence of Bob with the tiger, and the motivation is to challenge the whole story.
Aeao@lemmy.world 6 days ago
But Mario the plumber existed.
Again this is just semantics at this point. We have different idea of what’s necessary to be “historically” a real person. You are allowed your opinions. What is life anyway? It’s all philosophical.
But…. If you are enjoying this conversation like I am we can continue.
Was king tut a really person? Did Pharos exist.
What about Charles I of England
Socrates would love to discuss if he counts as real.
netvor@lemmy.world 6 days ago
when is the fact about the level of certainty we have about Socrates’s existence relevant, though? it depends.
if someone just mentions some specific idea that is often attributed to Socrates, then it’s probably totally irrelevant and you would be just "well, actually"ing someone. (which will backfire esp. if they actually know that full well and can/will stand for themselves)
if someone is defending a specific idea using an argument from authority of Socrates himself, then it’s probably pretty relevant. at best it’s an invitation to skip a bad argument path and take the focus back to the potential merit of the idea itself. (ofc this is regardless of whether you like that idea or not, learning what the other person perceive as valuable about the idea is usually more interesting than who they think came up with it)
if someone does the same but based on moral authority, then it’s the same principle, but probably much more important
if someone creates religion based on teachings of Socrates, then it’s pretty much important (although often seemingly ineffective, and in some cases, risky)
If someone starts asking questions about Socrates as a historical person (and heck, even questions specifcally about history of Socrates’ state of mind–see title of this whole post), then it’s obviously the most important thing they need to learn before continuing their research or pondering.
The last point bullet point describes what
@Phoenixzdid here, in the beginning of this sub-thread. (Just for Jesus Christ, not Socrates, of course.)Aeao@lemmy.world 6 days ago
You didn’t mention the king tho. Did he exist? He was gods spokesmen to the kingdom