If a spacefaring race is so utterly alien they donât even have a concept of counting how did they manage space travel?
And, like I said, math only works for the (presumably large) subset of aliens we could eventually talk to.
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funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works â¨4⊠â¨weeks⊠agowhat if they donât have the concept of atomic concepts: thereâs no such thing as âoneâ because everything can be divided, until you reach wave/particle duality in which case thereâs no singular state anyway? Thereâs no such thing as âtwoâ because there can be no dividing line between phenomena that have no external nor internal boundaries? What if they cannot see or hear but use other senses we have no names for?
DomeGuy@lemmy.world â¨4⊠â¨weeks⊠ago
funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works â¨4⊠â¨weeks⊠ago
we did it without what loosely translates as blarglsnargling and they are equally confused as to how we did it. The downside to our approach being pollution of our air, the downside to their approach being pollution of their planetâs crust. Both of which would be catastrophic if occurred in each otherâs ecosystem but is a mild irritant heading towards and eventual catastrophe for each respective society.
DomeGuy@lemmy.world â¨4⊠â¨weeks⊠ago
Space launches via catapult are entirely possible on earth. We donât do it mostly because the engineering scale is dramatically larger, not because of how we math.
The laws of physics seem to be consistent throughout our universe, so any claim that an alien race could travel through space without math is what skeptics call âan extraordinary claimâ.
I dont really see how a contrarian âwhat if theyâre just too weirdâ stance is even helpful in a discussion about why math is the closest thing we have to a universal language. If an alien civilization is too weird to grok math, I dont see how weâd ever be able to communicate with them at all.
funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works â¨4⊠â¨weeks⊠ago
itâs not that itâs not âmathâ itâs that the process by which we derive and conceptualize math may be alien to other consciousnesses.
we already have similar things like 0.999⌠= 1, or algebra, or base 10 v base 16 v base 2⌠is it so hard to conceive a race with different perception organs, a different âbrainâ that doesnât look or function like ours, maybe non-carbon-based would operate in a way that is entirely alien?
Consider how from 400 BC to 1800 AD disease was spread by âmiasmaâ and 20,000 years ago it wasnât spread by âanythingâ because we didnât have a framework or concept of the idea of disease transmission. Consider how before we went to space we thought there was âaetherâ outside the atmosphere, and before that it was âquinessetenceâ and before that it was a God or a celestial beetle or whateverâŚ
Are we so bold as to claim that our grasp on what numbers are and their relation to the universe wonât change as much in another 2,000 years, or 20,000?
glimse@lemmy.world â¨4⊠â¨weeks⊠ago
I feel like any civilization advanced enough is going to have no problem with that.
A body of water is connected but you can count the waves. Theyâd surely count repetition, too, such as their planet rotating and and orbiting itâs starting. Or sound - âclickâ one âclick clickâ two.
And if theyâre as intelligent as humans, both species are able to learn new abstract concepts
funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works â¨4⊠â¨weeks⊠ago
I mean this is all a hypothetical, so let me throw some blockers at you:
They donât distinguish between wave and not-wave, assuming they dont have a Lacanian concept of language and their pre-language concept of what we would call a wave is actually the average distance from the bottom of the ocean in an arbitrary field of qualia whereby they average out âextendedâ phenomena from an âunextendedâ experience of the average of the different forms of background radiation.
In which case they couldnât count a planet rotation and have no concept of counting or rotation but would express it instead as an average speed and direction in relation to the absorbed radiation of different astral and planetary (by which I mean âterrestrialâ for lack of a better word when not talking about our planet) bodies? So what is a year to us is a limitless expression of the average rate of change of the comparative rate of radiation from the nearest star and the largest vent in the bottom of their ocean? They express this by making parts of their carapace emit different strengths of radiation in different directions. Would we even know to call those emissions a language?
glimse@lemmy.world â¨4⊠â¨weeks⊠ago
I donât know enough about the stuff to form a strong argument but I feel if they live on our plane of existence, they experience time. And if theyâre intelligent enough to communicate with us, they could perceive the passing of it. Counting events of some kind would just come naturally
funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works â¨4⊠â¨weeks⊠ago
I guess Iâm just saying we donât know that for sure. We donât even really know if lobsters or mushrooms or trees âexperienceâ time. We know shrimps probably experience colors we canât conceive of, itâs not that far removes from reality.