Honestly, and this is digging pretty deep here, I think it boils down to entitlement.
I work in IT, and as one of the more senior people at my firm, am often coaching the paid interns we have coming through in spring and fall. I’ve been doing this for over a decade now, and I’ve noticed some trends among these early 20-somethings fresh out of college that was not the case previously. Namely, the employee/employer relationship.
As an easy example, here’s a specific argument I have had to have virtually every single time one of the new interns starts: “I know we’re supposed to be here at 8am but does it really matter? So what if Im a few minutes late?”
Well, once in a while, sure, shit happens. We’re actually pretty loosey goosey with that stuff and don’t watch people’s punches. We don’t go looking for people the minute they’re supposed to be at work, we give people 15-20 minutes to settle in and all that shit, which in my mind is pretty fuckin reasonable. But even that is seemingly “too micromanage-y” for the interns lately, and I’ve found myself having to explain how being on time to work is important, not just for our firm, but like, for society to function. Im explaining to legal adults that they need to be to work on time and its an argument. And the thing is, after a point, here’s the answer they’re going to get: “Why does it matter? Because if you don’t do what you agreed to do, your internship is going to be terminated and you will not be receiving an offer from our firm.” And somehow that is unreasonable to them. They literally think they can come in to a new job and do whatever the fuck they want, breeze in 30 minutes late every day, and we’re the assholes for taking issue with that.
But that’s just one easy, universally recognized example. There are dozens more, every single day. “Aw man, you’re telling me I have to do this by hand?” Yes, that’s what Im telling you. “But that’s going to take ages!” I know, believe me, I’ve done this same task myself many times. “I don’t want to do this.” Yeah, I know, but it needs to be done, and everyone else is working on other tasks, so unfortunately you’re going to have to do it. “But I don’t want to, I think this is dumb.” Well, you’re entitled to thinking whatever you want, but Im telling you, I need you to do this, and I know you don’t have anything else going on because Im the one that gives you your daily task list every morning, so go ahead and get started and let me know if you have any questions. “But I still don’t want to do this!” I heard you, but I don’t care whether you want to do it or not, you’re being paid a wage in exchange for your labor and we need your labor on this specific task. “So I don’t get a say in it?” Well, NO, you don’t…what on earth would make you think you think that?
And that’s the question I never get an answer to. Where they think that they have a say in whether or not they perform a legal task being posed to them by their employer. They’re free to quit and get a different job, Im not stopping them. Honestly, I’d prefer if they’d just quit now then me have to dance this stupid dance every other day, explaining to literal adults that the whole reason they’re paid a wage is to do these sorts of things. Like what did they think, they were going to come in here and change the business to suit their whims? How fucking childish.
bss03@infosec.pub 1 day ago
Yes, they do. They can just go home, or walk around the block, or work on something else. No matter what your employer tells them, they aren’t a slave at any point in time.
Will there be consequences? Absolutely. They might get fired. They might get sued. If the task is sufficiently important the State might consider them not doing the task criminal negligence.
This isn’t entitlement, it’s choice and freedom, and perhaps having different priorities than the person assigning tasks. Everyone, including GenZ: Do you, and if you can try to spread joy and reduce suffering.
Do remember tho, someone has to keep the infrastructure working, and it’s often not clear where in joy in that lies.
Angrydeuce@lemmy.world 1 day ago
FWIW, I agree with you. But to be clear, I didn’t list that choice because I felt it was obvious. They absolutely can walk out and not ever come back, they have that autonomy of course.
Where I make the distinction is where the line is drawn as concerns continuing your employment. If you will not perform the tasks expected of you, you will no longer be paid, your badge will no longer open the front doors, and you will not be working here. If that’s the decision you need to make for yourself, I fully support and there are no hard feelings on my side of the desk. I can and have had those sorts of frank discussions before, and it comes with my role in the company as it stands today. Don’t want to work a job with a set schedule? No problemo man, I get it, but that’s not how it is here, so best of luck to you in the future!
But as long as the wage is being drawn, and I’m asking for things that are part of the job expectations that are listed on the documentation they signed when they started working for us, that is beyond the point of negotiation. I’m not an asshole, and I have never in my life assigned a task that I have not personally done myself when I was in their shoes. The tools and technological gains have made their role easier by orders of magnitude then where it even was when I was the intern all those years ago. But when my mentor was assigning my tasks, never in a million years would I have thought that I had the right to dictate to my boss whether or not I would do that task if I wanted to continue being an employee of the firm. I felt it was pretty obvious and clear to anyone that has worked in their lives that it do be that way…I dont get to tell my boss what Im doing if I want my boss to continue employing me.
That is the disconnect Im referring to…the fact that people are taking jobs thinking that they get to dictate what the job entails, even after being told what the job entails, even after signing documentation saying they agree to what the job entails. Where does that come from? And why are people so surprised that refusing to do what a job entails means that you no longer can reasonably expect to continue that job?
bss03@infosec.pub 1 day ago
I don’t know, but I saw something similar in my father (RIP). He would agree to something, then get some benefits, then later attempt to “renegotiate”. That sort of behavior isn’t something “GenZ”. Some people just want to squeeze water our of rocks, even if it is deleterious to their relationships.
Similarly, I’ve certainly had employers that, despite my job duties clearly not covering the task would ask and expect me to perform other tasks “for the good of the company”. It’s fairly common these days for job offers to include “and other duties as assigned” because employers want to have all the power, and I’m fine with workers (of any generation) just refusing to comply.
It does sound like the employee was being unreasonable and maybe should be dismissed, but that doesn’t get the task done either, so maybe the “do it, you have no say” approach isn’t any better. And, I have no idea how I’d handle it. I kinda don’t like delegating stuff anyway, so if I thought the task was important I’d do it myself unless someone happily volunteered. But, I know that might not “scale” the way it needs to make the business work.
Angrydeuce@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Oh, believe me, I know that’s not just a GenZ thing. I’ve worked with people that were in their 60s that would pull the same sort of shit. I think it’s human nature to react negatively to being asked to perform an annoying task, and there are many shades of gray in whether the task itself is justifiable or not. Where I differ though is that in my own experience, so long as a request was reasonable, even if the request itself sucked, I didn’t refuse to do the thing, or at least, knew that if I refused to do the thing that it might have negative consequences on my continued employment.
I’m not a slave driver…believe me, I am very selective with delegating and like I said, I have literally never once in my life, not ever, asked someone to do something that I haven’t done myself and know intimately what it entails. I’ll delegate the task and even help them along by giving them guidance on the most efficient way to complete it…way more than I ever got, that’s for damn sure; where Im at now had a real sink or swim mentality before I came along and was able to shape things more constructively when it came to developing our new hires and that’s reflected in the changes in our turnover over those years.
But anyway, getting back to the point, it’s not just a GenZ thing, but it is something I’ve noticed at a much higher percentage in our younger interns and entry level employees then the years pre-Covid. Everyone is different, but that weird sense that they can have their cake and eat it, too…they can just opt out of doing what’s expected of them and still somehow expect to not have any consequences for doing that…that’s the thing that I see more and more as time goes on among the fresh hires where Im at. The surprisedpikachu when they’re getting talked to about the fact that they’ve rolled in a minimum of 20 minutes late every day this week with no explanation and that’s not okay. Being accused of being unreasonable for talking to them about it in the first place, like I’m out of line with the expectation. That’s the attitude that bothers me, and it’s more common then I’ve ever seen it before.