Comment on Pet Peeves with Games?

• ampersandrew@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I mean, character action games and score chasers do tend to fall in that optimal answer bucket. You’re free to freestyle and get a lower score, but without RNG, there will be one way to play that always works. If that counts as infinitely replayable, then so does any other game you enjoy. And for fighting games, that RNG is just substituted for your opponents’ decision making.

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  • mohab@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    You’re free to freestyle and get a lower score, but without RNG, there will be one way to play that always works.

    Most score you on style as well, not just efficiency. And massive breadth and depth of combat interactions yield more than one way that works, not just one. Even for shmups, routing can vary depending on the player, their skill, and understanding of the game. It’s not a timid sandbox wherein only one way works.

    If that counts as infinitely replayable, then so does any other game you enjoy.

    Keyword is enjoy. I don’t see myself replaying DMC5 for as long as I’ve been playing some of my favorite games because I enjoy it less.

    And for fighting games, that RNG is just substituted for your opponents’ decision making.

    Hmm… how does that work? I hit my opponent, they take damage, no Xcom bullshit. I don’t see any RNG-like behavior in this interaction.

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    • ampersandrew@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Most score you on style as well, not just efficiency.

      Right, but the style has point values assigned to you. If they’re unchanging, there is a way that will always work best, every time. At a high level (correct me if I’m wrong, as I’m somewhat new to this genre), rewarding style is similar to rewarding variety, juggles, and getting multiple enemies in the same attack. If you go down the checklist of your arsenal, you can always hit the variety. If you know exactly how the enemies behave, you can reliably get multiple enemies in the same aerial combo that the scoring system rewards most. The same actions give you the same output, and one of those score values will be the highest out of all other possible options. One set of actions will reliably always handle the same mob if it’s deterministic.

      Hmm… how does that work? I hit my opponent, they take damage, no Xcom bullshit. I don’t see any RNG-like behavior in this interaction.

      That’s just damage. The rest of the fighting game is rock paper scissors. A beats B beats C beats A. At round start, what button do you press? There’s always some option that beats your option, and that’s before we’ve even calculated the resulting damage. Some of what they’re doing is responding to what you’ve been doing, but the rest of what they’re doing is trying to be unpredictable; AKA random.

      Keyword is enjoy. I don’t see myself replaying DMC5 for as long as I’ve been playing some of my favorite games because I enjoy it less.

      That’s interesting. As I said, I’m somewhat new to this genre. The short version is that Hi-Fi Rush got me interested in checking out all of the DMC games (minus the reboot), and 5 ended up being my favorite of that series (but still not as good as Hi-Fi Rush).

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      • mohab@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        In action games, scoring the highest is typically not the priority as much as getting the rank, which happens once you pass a certain threshold predefined by the game. For example, if you need to score >5000 style points to get S in style, scoring >7000 won’t change the outcome because S is the highest rank. The result is: how you score higher than >5000 style points does not really matter, it is up to you. In a good action game, there typically is multiple tools you could use to get there depending on many factors, one of them is preference. How you start a combo, how you end it, or what you do in the middle, is up to you as long as the finally tally of the battle adds up to >5000 style points, and you stay under the time and damage taken ceiling.

        What you end up getting is multiple people fighting the same boss, getting an S rank, even though they have different strategies/play styles.

        Even if you choose to shoot for the highest combo score, attacks are typically assigned categories, and each category is assigned a score value. Kind of like damage level in fighting games. So, in theory, you could chain together a combo with different attacks and get the same score as long as they all fall in the same category.

        Now, this is one way to approach those games, which is different from what you hinted at earlier: playing to create style showcases, or “COMBO MAD”, which can also be endlessly fun because the player actively chooses to throw away the rules of the game and make up their arbitrary rules for their own enjoyment. The games typically give you the tools to play them both ways, up to you.

        In shmups, where grading is literal score chasing and more deterministic, flavor is typically added through (a) ship variety, (b) exploiting the game’s scoring mechanics when planning a route, and (3) player skill. This is why scores with different ships are often listed separately because, even though you’re playing the same game, using a different ship can heavily alter routing, including how the player exploits the game’s mechanics to get higher scores. It is the main reason people are still breaking records for games that came out decades ago: if everyone is playing exactly the same way, this wouldn’t be possible.

        In theory, there may be only one optimal route for every shmup out there, but we’ll never know what that route is for as long as people are still playing the games and breaking records. Same goes for action games: there may be one optimal combo for every enemy in every game, but in reality people typically only pursue this kind of knowledge when they’re playing some kind of challenge run, or looking for tips to cheese the game if they’re achievement hunting.

        I see what you mean with fighting games. My issue is: I whiff a -9 attack, you’re within range, you hit me with an attack that comes out in 5 frames, I am at 25% health, and I have no meter for a Roman Cancel: not only will your attack hit and do damage every time, it will be the same damage value, given I’m playing with the same character and you’re not A.B.A. going super sayian or you have some other damage modifier on.

        To approach this from another angle, I get hit in a fighting game, it’s on me. I misread a play, or did something silly like not hit-confirming a -9 attack. I find this different from “dumb luck” when I tactically maneuver myself into a superior position, I have 99% hit chance, I miss, and they get a critical hit next killing my character off. That to me is… not ideal, haha.

        I leave Faust to ElvenShadow, I’m not touching that crazy man.

        I like DMC5 a lot, it’s just too much of a combo simulator to make it into my list of favorites. I like weaving in and out of defense and offense like in Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden, and God Hand. I too prefer Hi-Fi Rush to DMC5, TBH. Such an awesome game! And mechanically deeper than most action game fans think, I have found. I watched some of my favorite action game YouTubers review it (Combat Overview and TheGamingBritShow) without covering some fun mechanics like parrying shields or dodge counters. Many people seem to think it’s all about the music beat gimmick, but it has a little more going for it than that. A replayable game, for sure.

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