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Comment on Is the right to abortion a "negative right" or a "positive right"?

That’s an interesting take. Unfortunately, brains are considered ‘fully developed’ at 24 weeks of pregnancy. Since most abortions are done well before that, the analogy doesn’t quite match. A more apt analogy would be to give your kidney to a brain dead person who may never recover/survive and if they don’t recover but do survive even with your best attempts then you are responsible for them for the rest of their lives.

Because an abortion, most frequently embryos not fetuses, are unable to support themselves as beings. A similar situation would be how unplugging a machine keeping someone alive isn’t considered murder because they would otherwise be dead. Except instead of a machine it’s a person. And they are being forced to not only support this person for 9 months but the rest of their lives, regardless of if the person is capable emotionally/physically/financially.

It should also be noted: in 2001, Steven Levitt of the University of Chicago and John Donohue of Yale University argued, citing their research and earlier studies, that children who are unwanted or whose parents cannot support them are likelier to become criminals.

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Nibodhika@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Yes, my entire point is that even if it was a human being, no questions asked, fully developed, with 100% chance of dying and 100% chance of you surviving, still the vast majority of people would agree the government can’t take your kidney, which means that on a case where there’s debate whether it’s even a human being, when it’s debate whether its alive or not, and where there’s questions as to whether it will even survive, the argument becomes that much stronger. Bodily autonomy is one of the rights out society considers most valuable.

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catreadingabook@kbin.social ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I'm against forced birth, but have to point out that there is the argument, whether realistic or not, that the parent can always give the baby to the foster care system once it's born, so their obligation would be limited to 9 months total.

Personally what I take issue with is the inconsistency of forced-birth laws in the absence of comparable forced-labor laws. In a world of ideal policy, maybe we as a society might agree that a person should be obligated to sacrifice their time and health for the sake of preserving or creating human life. But then it shouldn't be applied only to adult women who had consensual sex. Why shouldn't non-pregnant people be forced to tend a farm for 9 months to produce food for those who are starving, or to spend 9 months working 80-hour weeks at an emergency call center with no pay?

I suspect the answer is that the rights themselves are not the issue here, but rather the motivation to punish women who have consensual sex.

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- Unaware7013@kbin.social ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  the parent can always give the baby to the foster care system once it's born, so their obligation would be limited to 9 months total.
  
  That argument entirely overlooks the physical and mental changes that accompany pregnancy that persist well after the baby is delivered. Forcing the child bearing person to give up 9 months of their life for something they don't want or won't keep is awful alone, but the possible complications and life long issue that can come with it should make it unreasonable to force someone to go through that unwillingly.
  
  As you surmises, this is about power and punishment, not rights. Rights are just a convenient smokescreen for the autocratic control of women.
  
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  - WeeSheep@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Thank you! This is a great response. The only thing I would add as a response is that the laws are not only punishing women who have consensual sex, just those who have had a penis in them in general. Proving it wasn’t consensual is a long and arduous process which can lead to career, legal, and social issues even if found true in court.
    
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