Comment on How will the Military be after this mess with Trump?
FriendOfDeSoto@startrek.website 1 week ago
Soldiers have the right and the duty to resist illegal orders. I reserve respect for those who abide by that. Blind respect leads to blind eyes to when they eff up. And this American blind respect for active service members is so paradoxical in the face of how most veterans get treated.
The US military has survived the hot phase of the Korean War, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq. And it probably should have taken more damage as an institution after each of these. It will survive 47 as well. Long drawn out procedures will meter out homeopathic doses of wrist slaps for most involved minus a handful of high profile scapegoats.
SomeAmateur@sh.itjust.works 1 week ago
When it comes to domestic use america’s military is finding themselves in a bind. I don’t think we’ve seen a president that has pushed so hard for military use in relative peacetime. It’s coming into more and more conflict with how the military has been trained and the principles they are held to. I think that internally the military is taking a hard look at what they can and should do about this.
They all took oaths. Enlisted members say this
“I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”
Those regulations include the laws of war. All military members get yearly training on this. What is and isn’t a combatant, what is and isn’t a lawful order etc. This includes a duty and obligation to disobey illegal orders, but usually the process is to get clarification from one of their officers. An officer’s oath of enlistment looks like this.
"I ___, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God. "
Note there is not a President mentioned there. The enlisted have a duty and obligation of the enlisted is to ultimately disobey illegal orders, but officers play a key role in leading those units. Enlisted members rejecting an order from some officersn is one thing. Officers, or many officers rejecting an order is another.
I think what we are seeing is a careful balancing act. The military is going where they are told to go, but maybe not send as many or be as aggressive as they administration would like. Stay involved enough to not be outright fired, but try to hit the brakes on this mess and internally pushing back.
FriendOfDeSoto@startrek.website 1 week ago
Yes, the introduction of an individual, ethical “veto” came after the formation of national militaries like we know them today. There is built in tension to introduce a right to disobey into a system that otherwise demands obedience to function. It’s also hard to grasp as a concept even for the better educated. It’s fucked up. These days I’m thinking more and more about the adage that morale is something you need to be able to afford. And I understand every sergeant who feels like they don’t have any morale money to spend when ordered, say, to fire on shipwrecked drug smugglers. You piss off your boss and before you know it you’re dishonorably discharged back to the poverty stricken area you tried to get away from. Also, left-leaning liberals are a minority in a profession that practices how to kill people. There is so much gray there.
I say I understand the hypothetical sergeant in their moral life dilemma. As far as my respect is concerned, I can be totally black and white about this though.
The pessimistic take is none of this will matter because the US is moving further away from its constitutional order into a 21st century version of fascism. The military will be ridden of the morale “veto” and sworn to obey the leader no matter what. The optimistic take sees the current cult/fascistoid leadership edged out in 3-7 years and we will mostly see the homeopathic punishment I mentioned before. If we’re lucky, a tightening of the rules under which circumstances and with whose authority military units of any kind can be mobilized in peacetime within the US.