Comment on Framework under fire for Omarchy/DHH/Hyprland support?

• svcg@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨12⁩ ⁨minutes⁩ ago

  Ostracism is how communities change people with bigoted beliefs. When communities ostracise open bigotry, most bigoted people will at least keep their bigotry to themselves, in order not to be ostracised.

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• TehPers@beehaw.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  The purpose of these communities isn’t to help people learn to not be assholes. A Framework community, for example, is a community centered around Framework’s products and ecosystems.

  As far as responsibility, a community is built by its people, and it is not my responsibility to change someone’s views. I have no sympathy towards people who would harm or advocate/celebrate the harm of myself or anyone close to me. They can fuck off.

  These views are harmful to communities because when acted on, they exclude entire groups from the community. They tear apart communities, turning it into a political “us vs them” rather than discussions about the original topic.

  Nobody is saying people with these views can’t be members of the community, but that they are required to accept the presence of those they are prejudiced against in order to contrbute to it. But if they make the rules, they will forbid those they are prejudiced against from being members at all.

  If someone’s actively interested in a discussion and wants to learn, then that’s one thing. But it’s still off topic for most communities.

  Note that none of what I just said is specific to far-right views. It’s just most common with them.

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  • TechnoCat@piefed.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Well put. I agree with this.

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• prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  I think the ostracization can be more of a catalyst for individual change than just ignoring them and letting them infect a community.

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  • TechnoCat@piefed.social ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    That is true. To be clear, I don’t advocate for allowing or ignoring hate speech.

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• cityboundforest@beehaw.org ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  I want to start this comment out by saying that I do agree that communities can change people, that if one is exposed to differing perspectives and belief systems, that one has the opportunity to change their outlook on the world. It’s definitely how I was able to get myself out of some very bad thought processes that were ingrained into me as a child. I would, however, like to grain-of-salt that to say that I was open to hearing about differing perspectives and belief systems.

  Respectfully (to you and other leftists at least), as a disabled queer trans person, I am tired of the emotional labor it takes to justify why I should exist to people on the right. I agree it should be done to engage with as many people that are willing to take it in as possible. I have done it enough to know that there are times when you can try as hard as you can, but the person just won’t come over to your side of thought. I’m reminded of the saying “I can explain it for you, but I can’t understand it for you.”

  Again, I don’t mean to direct any malice or misgiving towards you or anyone else engaging with this topic in good faith. I’m just tired of doing the work that other non-marginalized people should have been doing for years.

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  • TechnoCat@piefed.social ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Thank you for your response. I hear you loud and clear.

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• z3rOR0ne@lemmy.ml ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Yeah, I’ve heard this response to my argument more times than I care to mention.

  Let’s be clear, I don’t want to give off the impression I’m not open to people changing for the better. If you can end bigotry through discussion instead of arguments or worse yet, violence, then obviously that is preferable.

  The issue is that for every honest misinformed person I’ve encountered who is open to listening to differing points of view, I’ve easily encountered 10 right wing grifters who are in bad faith trying to distract from the main problem with whataboutisms and other tactics, with the end goal of dehumanizing and ostracizing groups that they perceive as the other, i.e. minorities.

  These people are in their adult years, likely grew up in households where they themselves were bullied, harassed, made fun of, and dehumanized. They then went to school where sadly they were likely to have experiences that further eroded their emotional intelligence and ability to connect with anybody who had differing views from them. They then grew up and sought out others who had suffered similar experiences and come to similar misguided conclusions, either online or IRL. These are people who grew up being told that apologizing was a sign of weakness, to never ever admit that they were or ever will be wrong, and to only play at having empathy in order to have a seat at the discussion table where they could then present their ideas as “just asking questions.” When in fact they are trying to sow discord and form a pipeline into their hateful ideology for others who are emotionally vulnerable and open to ideas as to why life didn’t play out for them like they thought it would.

  If they lack critical thinking skills and a strong community support structure, these emotionally vulnerable people end up spewing hateful ideology within a few months and it breaks my heart, because usually there’s no coming back for them. They can’t be argued or reasoned with. It’s as if an empathetic child who just needed community died due to abandonment, and some ghoul due to demonic corruption is left in their place.

  Its not that I don’t want to believe that people can change for the better. I’ve seen it in myself and others, I know it is real.

  But I’ve also been in enough online, and in some cases, offline, spaces to know a bigot when I see one. I can sniff a disingenuous asshole just trying to “ask questions” from a mile away and it always ends up with a bunch of 4chan transphobes either openly or behind closed doors making fun of a minority and in some of the worst cases, planning violence.

  My tolerance for even the smallest inkling of hate speech is zero. I’m just done giving these people enough rope to hang people I care about with.

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  • TechnoCat@piefed.social ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I appreciate your response. I do not want to be in the same room as people that think my peers or I shouldn’t exist based on identity. Therefore fascists aren’t welcome. I still personally ponder how to rehabilitate them.

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    • AceOnTrack@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Image

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    • niartenyaw@midwest.social ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      i think there has to be a balance. if these people are not rehabilitated or dealt with quickly enough, it will cause those who are targeted by or against such bigotry to feel like the don’t belong. they will likely interact with the community less and potentially leave it.

      i’m not saying we shouldn’t try to rehabilitate those we think can be saved, but there are unfortunately tradeoffs.

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      • TechnoCat@piefed.social ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        I understand and agree.

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• amino@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  if Nazis wanted to be changed, they wouldn’t have become Nazis. fascism is where the open minded mentality goes to die. the only way to make them stop is to take their power to abuse oppressed people away

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  • TechnoCat@piefed.social ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I don’t agree with most of what you’re saying. While fascism and white supremacy causes immense harm, you still have to see individuals as people.

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    • ranandtoldthat@beehaw.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

      When I criticize a fascist I can criticize that individual. When I want someone who advocates harm to be stripped of power, I can mean that person specifically. We absolutely must treat these people as individuals, but individuals can do bad things, they can be wrong.

      Just because the powerful encourage hate speech and violence does not mean that it’s okay. Don’t forget the solution to the paradox of tolerance: don’t tolerate intolerance.

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    • jarfil@beehaw.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      That would work, if it wasn’t individuals who don’t see others as people. The moment someone dehumanizes others, there are dedicated professional who can babysit them back to sanity.

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    • amino@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      i do not actually. if I start treating fascists as people, that’s how trans and disabled women end up dead with the blame placed on us for not being submissive enough during the assault

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• GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Well, I do think the first step would be calling out their bad behavior. Maybe they don’t think what they’re saying is so bad, or maybe they think their peers are okay with it. On that point, I don’t think financially supporting them will indicate we don’t approve of their statements or behavior.

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  • TechnoCat@piefed.social ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    They often have other communities that validate the bad ideas. So they feel “censored” when they act the same way in public and get reprimanded. When it is actually just communities moderating hate.

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• TechnoCat@piefed.social ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Okay. I’ve been pondering myself for a while. I think I asked the wrong questions previously.

  The situation isn’t about ostracizing users, it is about a desire for a company to not platform and financially support fascist people. Which makes total sense to me.

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