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Well, I’m on my phone so apologies if my replies are shorter generally. I will attempt to answer some of these. Yes, I have engaged in a ton of discussion with hardcore feminists. I have listened to podcasts by them including Stuff Mom Never Told You and unfortunately read Brotopia. This is not my first rodeo. And you don’t need to listen to Tate or Kirk any of those extremely distasteful people to know that feminism claims to speak for men’s interests while completely ignoring them. Feminism 100% claims to be acting in the interest of both men and women, and at least for men, it completely falls short of that. You will try to correct me. That is the problem.

Any ideology that posits “<ideology> is necessary” is self-serving and borderline cult. The ideas of the ideology are what matter, and the ideology itself is just a name. If the ideas were any good, you should just as easily be able to create a new ideology from those ideas with a different name and have it be just as valid.

Which is really funny because masculism and feminism both claim to be about equality. But only feminism is the one that is right, apparently.

A good chunk of the population has been listening to feminism for… decades. What do you mean, when will the grievances be heard? We’ve heard them. Women are oppressed, the second sex. Abortion is a right. Equal access to healthcare. 84 cents to a dollar. Alimony. Some of these are addressable, some of them have been addressed, and some of them are not addressable. It’s complicated.

Perhaps I should be asking you when will men’s grievances be heard?

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Warl0k3@lemmy.world ⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
I’m sure I’ll get into the rest in a moment, but for the sake of “I’m cooking dinner”: to your mind, what are men’s grievances?

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- ronigami@lemmy.world ⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  Sure thing. Thanks for asking. Well, I would say main ones are:
  
  Family court — completely asymmetrical treatment of men, basically for every 7 chances a woman gets in family court, a man gets 1. This is a made up number but it’s to get the essence across.
  
  Male disposability is widely accepted and not compensated for at all. A good example of this is mandatory selective service which still exists today.
  
  As a result of the accepted disposability, men have a far higher death rate both by accident and by suicide rate (which is 400% that of women)
  
  Title IX imposes unjust punishments on men in colleges by favoring “preponderance of the evidence” standard over the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard — basically, if there’s even a slight chance of sexual misconduct, men can be thrown out of college without any kind of trial.
  
  Asymmetrical definitions of rape which only apply to men in definition and also in practice are enforced mostly on men.
  
  The above denial of female rapists leading to severe mental health issues for men who are raped or sexually abused by their female parters.
  
  Generally men’s lagging acceptance rates into university (this would be more of an equity issue on par with the 83 cents to a dollar issue, as opposed to an equality issue like the others)
  
  Demonization of fathers — the number of stories of fathers getting dirty looks for taking their kid into a changing room or even just existing in a playground with their kid are unending.
  
  Last but not least, “male loneliness epidemic” which I think is a stupid phrase and this is one of the more unaddressable issues by everyone but it’s still a problem.
  
  I never said the core idea of feminism isn’t egalitarianism. Just that you can be egalitarian without being a feminist, since feminism involves so many other ideas. They don’t all spring from “equality” and equality itself has many different conceptualizations. Feminism’s conceptualization of how to achieve equality is essentially limited to, “women should be given more supports” which is not a good way of thinking about it any more than an elevator’s best way of operating is “just move the person higher and higher.”
  
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  - Warl0k3@lemmy.world ⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    Okay I generally hate point by point responses so I’m sorry in advance, and I’ve tried to format this in way that will make it less bad to read. Also this is very american-centric, though the trends to tend to carry over across western cultures because of that convenient hegemony:
    
    Family Court
    I’m sorry, this one is a common piece of misinformation. While on the surface the statistics are clear that yes men are seldom (~10% of cases) awarded full custody, 90%+ of child custody agreements (formal or informal - it’s actually quite uncommon for a formal custody agreement to exist) are decided completely independently of the courts, and those agreements are what this statistic is based off of. Men nearly always give up custody (and yes doubtlessly the impact of the perception of court bias doubtlessly plays into this, but not enough to shift the balance this severely). The reason this is misrepresented is that THERE IS NO REPORTING on child custody decisions from the courts - it’s straight up illegal to release that information in the US and is similarly restricted in pretty much every western country - and anyone who claims that these statistics are from court decisions are either wrong or lying to you. There is almost no data on this, and the oft-cited PEW study (which was taken down) that these numbers crome from is extremely explicit about the source of the data.
    
    Male Disposability
    Yeah, this one sucks (and has sucked for all of human civilization). However, not only have feminist groups in the US been suing for decades to allow women inclusion into selective service, they are also the ones trying to get women allowed into combat roles because they legally cannot be put into them. So, feminists are also aware and also would like this fixed, and have been fighting hard to get it changed. It’s awful, but it really should be equal-opportunity awful.
    
    Death Rate
    The male death rate by accident is extremely complicated, but broad strokes is down to both a culture of heavy drinking (which is vastly improving in Gen Z/Alpha!) and that men do nearly all manual labor (the most dangerous category of jobs). There is a push for more women to be included in manual labor jobs, but it isn’t overly vehement - both biological differences make this a difficult argument, and manual labor sucks. Why would anyone want to do that if they don’t have to (this excludes skilled trades, which are HEAVILY biased against women and do not require pure muscle density - I can elaborate on how vital female welders are, if you would like, but for the sake of brevity I will delete that three paragraph rant).
    
    Title IX
    Okay this one pisses me off: This is absolutely not how title nine works, and I say that as a university professor who has to do a yearly training on Title IX, who’s been subject to Title IX hearings for sexual misconduct (both dropped, suits were not brought by the victims but a male student “on their behalf” and without informing them so that was fun, they both found out and immediately protested on my behalf so fuck yea…) and has sat on the panel for Title IX misconduct cases (though in the past twenty years at my uni, there has never been a Title IX hearing for sexual misconduct brought against a male student. It’s almost impossible to get it to happen). This just isn’t at all accurate, and I do not know where you got this information from because it is just wrong. Also, Title IX investigations are subject at very least to reasonable doubt (and not not preponderance of evidence, because it is a civil issue not criminal). Title IX explicitly proscribes hearings and the conduct of those hearings is subject to legal oversight and public review as well, so… yeah, go find me some examples of this having happened please.
    
    Rape
    yeah, our laws about rape are terrible. Hell, there are a number of states that still differentiate between marital and non-marital rape, and explicitly state that it’s only male-on-female assault that qualifies. Here is an amazing article on how fucked up rape laws, and cultural attitudes surrounding rape, are and what feminists are doing to change the laws for both genders
    
    Female Rapists
    No argument, this one is terrible. Women also want this fixed, see above for how fucked up our rape laws are (and then just start drinking because it’s not getting better any time soon, thanks alt-right).
    
    Male Acceptance Rates
    Again a real fucker of a pet peeve: Men are being accepted less on the whole because we are getting fewer male applicants. There are doubtlessly cultural baises behind this, but it’s not the unis choosing more women over men - we’re choosing proportionally the same number from our applicants, but there are just not as many men as there were previously (also, application rates for women have also decreased, though markedly less. Application volumes are down across the whole of the educational system!)
    
    Demonization of Fathers
    This one, man, yeah this one is a real fucker. I won’t expound too much, but the cultural shift towards the fear of pedophilia and kidnapping is a fascinating subject to get into (while you drink. Or smoke. Or do whatever escapist activity gets you through the day).
    
    Male Loneliness Epidemic
    Man, yeah, I don’t know about this one. The death of 3rd spaces has been horrible for society, and covid just exacerbated that. It’s just hard to make new friends anymore, boy do I know that pain. Just sucks.
    
    Feminism’s conceptualization of how to achieve equality is essentially limited to, “women should be given more supports”
    
    I’m… look, I’m really trying so hard not to just go “no you’re wrong” in this whole conversation, and except for a couple points above (which are, sadly, just wrong) I’ve been pretty good about refraining… but this is just wrong? I’m truly curious where you got this from, especially since you say you’ve both read Brotopia and SMNTY and that’s completely antithetical to the core message of both. No seriously, who’s saying this? You see it presented in rage bait subreddits like r/TumblrInAction or r/TheRedPill, but I genuinely doubt you browse those cesspits so… I’m just not sure where you’re getting this. This has never been the messaging of feminism. Please, why do you think this is what’s happening?
    
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