So we shouldn’t band together, to band together.
You should calm down your drug use IMO.
Comment on Is anyone else not feeling that patriotic for July 4?
Allero@lemmy.today 4 days agoThe state should not exist. We are people of Earth, and we should not be divided by someone.
Valmond@lemmy.world 4 days ago
Allero@lemmy.today 4 days ago
We should band together based on mutual respect and common responsibility, and not based on someone telling us who to band with and who not to.
The concept of nation-state doesn’t allow us to band with whoever we like, and calls to unite with people born in place X (and commonly against people born in place Y). The concept of state in general oversees and dictates our relationships more broadly.
Multitude of states all fostering loyalty to their rulers doesn’t allow many people to look at those of other nations as equals and fellows with shared global goals. Sure, messages of international peace are commonplace, but hey, we should definitely exclude those pesky Chinese/Russians/Americans/Ukrainians/Israelis/Palestinians/whatever!
When we categorize people by nations through the lens of state, we put easy labels that are far from true. If someone’s a Russian, he sure supports war in Ukraine. If someone’s American, he sure is personally responsible for all the immigrant scare. If someone’s born in Israel or China, clearly he’s all on board with genocide!
At the same time, state-level patriotism fosters coming to terms with terrible people within the nation. Sure, our billionaires might be at fault in some ways, but it’s better than other country’s evil and corrupt billionaires! Our rulers are wise leaders, their rulers are cruel autocrats! My neighbor is a terrible person, but at least he’s not one of those <input the nation with bad stereotypes>!
It forces us to make preference to people who may not deserve our support, who might be actively undermining our causes, it leads us to close our eyes on the sufferings of others outside our arbitrary group that doesn’t even share our views and goals.
Now, I know it doesn’t have to be that extreme, but patriotism is always showing preference to someone or something based on a very arbitrary characteristic, instead of honest and fair consideration. It’s an intentionally cultivated fallacy.
On a personal note, I’d rather avoid ad hominem attacks if you’d like to keep a good faith discussion running. And, FYI, I never take any drugs, not even alcohol.
tane@lemmy.zip 4 days ago
Utopian nonsense
Allero@lemmy.today 4 days ago
We can always do our best to make it closer.
Most people claim this to be Utopian, and then just try to tone it down in others, so their own compliance is not seen to themselves as weakness but rather “wisdom”. No - it is a surrender, an act of learned helplessness.
Sure, it’s hard to force politicians to abandon the concept of nations, and it’s hard to bring a revolt to a population so compliant.
But everyone can make personal steps. First, admit that patriotism is bullshit. Second, watch your own preferences in people and what you factor in your decision. Third, if you have the opportunity, form an international collective, reach out to specialists within other nations, or if you can’t, see if you can build a collective or even just a friend group with the immigrants around you. Fourth - advocate for people in other countries, learn what they face, what they get to endure. For example - do you know that the deadliest of recent wars was not in Ukraine or Palestine, but in Ethopia? Or the current situation in Myanmar? Did you consider supporting women rights’ causes in the Middle East?
Personal action and involvement will not allow you to fall for the traps the state tries to implant in your mind, and you’ll be personally responsible for a small, but proud piece of international cooperation - one that should become commonplace to the point when it wouldn’t make sense for anyone to draw divisions.
Human life is human life. Human suffering is human suffering - here or on the other side of the globe. The concepts of unity, hope, and cooperation are all universally recognized wherever you are. Why not step in?
Valmond@lemmy.world 3 days ago
You’re from the US? It smells like you see the whole world through that lens.
Allero@lemmy.today 3 days ago
Nope, I’m from Russia.
But then again, where does that not have its place? Are people in Europe, say, universally welcoming to immigrants? Or maybe Asia is not full of xenophobia? Africa, at least?..
There are much better factors of unity than being on a certain plot of land.
Valmond@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Can’t answer your post, it’s too deep (I’m on Connect, it doesn’t handle deep posts very well) so I’m answering your latest post here.
After WW2 (that Russia started with Germany):
Russia occupied half of Europe by force, calling it the soviet union. Most countries didn’t have a say and didn’t want to be in the union, and no one was allowed to leave. Some were outright invaded like Czechoslovakia.
The USA has military bases all around the world yes, but most of them are wanted by the countries, and if asked the USA will leave (see France for example). The USA has not tried to annex one single country.
If you can’t see the difference we’ll then I just can’t discuss more subtle things with you like countries and borders and gouvernances. So yeah it took a turn there I guess, a shame if it ends, because it’s been interesting!
Allero@lemmy.today 1 day ago
Oh, Connect is still out there? Thought it is dead.
Annexation by USSR touched Baltics and parts of Poland. The rest was more of puppet governments - something the US has practiced extensively all around the globe.
Part of it was ex-Axis powers (like Japan), the other part - just about any government thinking of socialism or economic independence from the US or having oil (Vietnam, Cuba, Chile, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, Brazil, Bolivia, Cambodia, Syria, Guatemala, China, Egypt - you name it). After the Cold War, there were barely a few years US was not involved in some conflict or the other over its “national interests” or “national security”, suggesting that it was never about rivalry with USSR. Needless to say, local population was commonly not very happy about it.
So, I cannot in good faith agree that US was any better in this respect. Both sucked a lot, and same is likely to happen to any grand military power - if anything because military needs experience to stay efficient, and with great power comes great desire to use it to your advantage.
Valmond@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Well the USA is a democracy and Russia is and has always been an autocracy (with that little blip in the nineties). The USA doesn’t always value human life like you’d like but Russia outright uses, and has always used, people in slaughters, famins etc.
If you can’t see the difference then I do not want to try out your (anarchy?) solution…
Still interesting you can’t see your own country for what it is.
Allero@lemmy.today 1 day ago
For what it is in what respect? You tried to argue that Cold War is a good vs evil situation, I argued that it is very much not.
I fully admit Russia is and always was (I told you why nineties don’t really count) an autocracy, and that actions of Russian rulers have caused a lot of misery and suffering. This doesn’t stop me from admitting the US is a deeply flawed democracy, that American rulers are known to take plenty of unpopular decisions (including wars that no one asked for), and are generally known to not care about lives of people outside the country, causing even more misery all around the globe up to this day.
And this is exactly why I want the governments to have less power, and advocate for direct democracy. Any power is potential for abuse, and Russia and the US have likely proved it the most. Curbing the power of all governments, big and small, has great potential to reduce violence and abuse. With direct democracy and independent media, Russia could have never attacked Ukraine, Israel could never attack Palestine, and US wouldn’t threaten to enter Iran yet again. Russia also wouldn’t have opposition in jails or abroad, US wouldn’t send immigrants to Alligator Alcatraz, and level of human misery would be so much less.
As long as we lead ourselves to believe that this misery and suffering is righteous or “not that bad” to any degree, we empower the tyrants all around the globe.