This is far from the whole story. And in fact, this kind of disdain is part of the problem.
Comment on What kind of upbringing makes an incel?
Lifecoach5000@lemmy.world 8 months ago
My casual take: I’m not sure if it’s 100% upbringing but for most it seems some sense of entitlement. They deserve the pretty girl because something-something even though they might not be bringing much to the table attraction wise.
And now I just had a passing thought. We don’t seem to hear about gay incels much. Is that even a thing?
bouh@lemmy.world 8 months ago
SergeantSushi@lemmy.world 8 months ago
“Gaycels” and “femcels” do exist in tangential universes to incels.
ezures@lemmy.wtf 8 months ago
I always find the word “femcel” funny, since the word incel came from a woman describing her situation.
nicetomeetyouIMVEGAN@lemmings.world 8 months ago
It’s deeply patriarchal in the sense that incels are a group of people that think women are obliged to give sex to men. This simply doesn’t work for gays, even though there are deeply misogynist gays who embraced patriarchal norms, and are maybe even sympathetic to incels.
So yes you are completely correct about the entitlement part. The entitlement is that men are entitled to sex from women. The something-something is the patriarchy and the bemoaning of a culture that is taking it away. Or giving women the freedom to pick and choose, because they will then only pick 'chads". Etc.
bouh@lemmy.world 8 months ago
This is only half the explanation. This patriarcal culture is the old model, but also the only one. The old model has been broken, but no new model exists. There are only two solutions out of this: a new male model, but you can hardly do that alone and no one cares about it currently ; or the feminists are wrong and the old model is actually good.
It’s easy to fall in the trap of the second solution, and fascists are now making hard propaganda for it because they feast over hatred and a glorified past. Here they get to glorify an outdated culture, and to hate on a political opponent. This outdated culture is also about hating on a supposedly weak group, women. Win win for them. Hard loss for society.
nicetomeetyouIMVEGAN@lemmings.world 8 months ago
I think that all patriarchal models, not just male models, are disappearing and that we’re witnessing the loss of privilege. It’s not as if feminism is creating a model to be a woman, it’s the opposite it’s the destruction of the gender model.
So, I really do not believe in the idea that men need a new model. We can just tap into our humanity and be who we are, authentically. In essence abolishing gender all together. It shouldn’t be a social factor expecting/demanding you to behave a certain way.
It’s difficult to figure out the difference between being authentic and being ideologically programmed, especially when they overlap. It’s far easier to claim that true authenticity is inherent in patriarchal ideology. And that’s why incels claim the ‘old’ model is actually good.
It’s also why it’s mostly a problem for impressionable young men who lack introspection, or at least the life experience needed for it to be useful. While the removal of patriarchal ideology they are subject to haven’t really changed, male culture and tradition stand in the way of that. So on the one hand they are fully aware of what is expected for them in the male role but on the other hand society and especially women are moving away from this expectation. Depending on social factors you deal with this discrepancy differently.
If there is something lacking it is that there are very few men who stand there with open arms to catch these young men on the feminist side. We need more men that embrace feminism and guide young men with acceptance and love. And I have a theory for why but this is getting long. (feminism lifted on the back of individualism)
We can be a person without the baggage of a gender role.
bouh@lemmy.world 8 months ago
The privileges are irrelevant to the problem. The problem is about how to date and seduce.
These interactions are extremely codified. The interesting part is that they are completely tied to culture, but almost all cultures show heavy patriarchal bias.
Depending in the culture it’s tought in different ways. In our western culture, we have the example of our peers, movies and magazines.
It’s not a matter of role but a matter of how to behave. And it’s not about being nice and respectful. These are obvious to anyone who’s not an asshole. But you are not attractive by being nice and respectful, and you’re delusional if you think it’s the case.
Incels topically missed the classes about how to do the dating and seducing. They weren’t necessarily assholes before the trauma and conditioning. But when you are bad this game and you look for advices, the only answers you will find are conservative and machist. And that’s the positive answers you will find.
Because too many reactions will be disdainful or shaming. This thread is an example of it. And from the people who pretend they are trying to fix the problems between men and women, it’s a shame IMO.