Comment on Time to grow up.

• dx1@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  As the saying goes, I don’t eat, exploit or sexually abuse humans either, I just rule it out across the board, while you guys don’t.

  You sure do rationalize the shit out of how we’re worse than you because we have stricter/consistent moral standards though! Always some twisted bit of logic to explain that one.

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  • biddy@feddit.nl ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    But you do exploit humans. The food you eat, the clothes you wear, actually pretty much everything you use was made with exploitation. The fact you can choose to go vegan and complain about it on the internet means you are incredibly privledged. As am I.

    You talk about rational discussion but all I’m seeing from you is the opposite, “all meat eaters are evil”.

    The world is complicated and there’s a lot of things wrong with it. You chose one problem to focus on, and that’s great. But just because other people have other things that they prioritize doesn’t mean they are bad people.

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    • dx1@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I did not choose one problem to focus on. This whole comment is a big “tu quoque” based on assumptions about me that aren’t even true. I buy local food, I get clothes from thrift stores, etc. And I made no claim about “all meat eaters are evil”, this is just the classic “take a vegan saying that eating meat is unethical and interpret it as an attack on your character”, which is another pattern I’ve had just about enough of.

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      • neshura@bookwormstory.social ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        The question of the ethics of your diet are an objective issue one way or the other

        I have a problem with your choice of words

        ethics

        objective issue

        pick one. Ethics by their very nature are subjective. Anything relating to them as a basis is therefore also subjective. There is no such thing as objective ethics. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you did not write what you meant but as written this is contradictory in itself.

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      • federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        take your pride and your identity politics and get them out of the conversation.

        we actually sacrifice something to try to do the right thing, and get treated like subhumans for it. Having an actual rational discussion is right out the window

        pick one?

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      • federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        This whole comment is a big “tu quoque” based on assumptions about me that aren’t even true.

        it might be a tu quoque if it weren’t for the fact that you set yourself up as the standard, and you’re standing on a lie.

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  • federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Having an actual rational discussion is right out the window because god forbid you engage honestly with

    someone who understands your arguments and doesnt fall for them.

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  • federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    no one is sexually abusing animals, either, and you most certainly do exploit other people.

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  • abraxas@sh.itjust.works ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    As the saying goes, I don’t eat, exploit or sexually abuse humans either

    First off, feel free to open with any scientific evidence that cows suffer the emotional trauma of sexual abuse from farming. Because the thing is, we have thousands of years of evidence and that doesn’t seem to be the correct conclusion. No, calling cattle insemination sexual abuse is a malicious lie.

    You sure do rationalize the shit out of how we’re worse than you because we have stricter/consistent moral standards though!

    This. Right. fucking. here. You are telling me that my moral system is less than dirt. That I am inferior to you. You don’t talk about it with any genuine respect. If I won’t “sexually abuse” my ethics, I’m dirt underneath your feet. You didn’t argue the points here, because I’m beneath you. Less than you. Let me guess, some of that human-hating-vegan propaganda where I either haven’t thought about it, or I’ve taken a retardation shotgun to my head because I “loooooooove” the taste of meat? Because I can’t just think YOU’RE wrong. No, I can’t do that. Because I’m too stupid to. Right?

    You wouldn’t really understand unless you’ve lived through it, but it’s a little nasty little bit of discrimination in its own right

    I’m a member of a fringe religion that my country tried to ban, so fuck “little nasty bit of discrimination”. YOU DON’T GET TO CALL YOURSELF A VICTIM OF DISCRIMINATION BECAUSE I DON’T LIKE YOU BELITTLING ME. That’s not how discrimination works. You sound like the Religious Right who think they are victims every time they don’t get to ban Mosques or gay marriage.

    and get treated like subhumans for it

    I don’t think you’re a subhuman. I think you’re a zealot. HUGE fucking difference. It’s not discrimination when you judge someone’s actions. I don’t call your horrible behavior “discriminatory” because you’re disagreeing with what I do and not who I am. The judgement is mutual. You don’t get to call it discriminatory because I won’t bend over for you and your bullshit pseudoscience.

    Having an actual rational discussion is right out the window

    You mean by calling the dairy and cattle industry “sexual abuse”? You start being the least bit rational, and then you can MAYBE try to judge the kettle. Let me point out that I was agreeing with somebody about treating cows and women the same being misogynistic, and you just fucking went off on me. Because agreeing that bullshit is bullshit is somehow “irrational” and attacking non-vegans for not accepting that bullshit is “irrational”. No. YOU are irrational.

    because god forbid you engage honestly with a “militant vegan” who’s lived through, rejected and moved past the thinking you’re still stuck on.

    Actually I was engaging with a decent human being I agreed with, and a militant vegan decided to approach me with a persecution complex. So in this thread, why should I care what you’ve lived through? Do you approve of being approach on the street by strangers and judged?

    And I’ve “lived through, rejected, and moved past” your thinking, too. I used to be an active member of a religion that has strong roots in both philosophical veganism and in philosophical omnivorism. Circle of live vs All life is sacred sects. You might not realize it, but a lot of people with a lot more understanding of ethics and a lot more philosophical background than you have spent a lot more time thinking about veganism than you have. And I lived through it, rejected it, and came out the other side.

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    • dx1@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      First off, feel free to open with any scientific evidence that cows suffer the emotional trauma of sexual abuse from farming. Because the thing is, we have thousands of years of evidence and that doesn’t seem to be the correct conclusion. No, calling cattle insemination sexual abuse is a malicious lie.

      Rambling article that fails to prove its central point. Points out that cows identify humans as “the predator” but for some reason think this doesn’t factor into a negative experience for human arms being jammed inside them? I don’t know why people feel so compelled to defend this.

      This. Right. fucking. here. You are telling me that my moral system is less than dirt. That I am inferior to you.

      This whole paragraph is literally the rationalization process. You internalize that somebody pointing out an ethical issue is attacking you personally, and from there launch into a whole thing about what a zealot absolute-fucking-asshole they must be for pointing it out, how they must think you’re stupid, how dare they, blah blah blah. I am literally just talking about how a practice is unethical and the negative experiences (like this) I’ve had discussing it with people, where people flare up into an emotional shitstorm instead of talking about it calmly and rationally. You’re doing it right now.

      I’m a member of a fringe religion that my country tried to ban, so fuck “little nasty bit of discrimination”. YOU DON’T GET TO CALL YOURSELF A VICTIM OF DISCRIMINATION BECAUSE I DON’T LIKE YOU BELITTLING ME.

      I don’t think you’re a subhuman. I think you’re a zealot.

      It is discrimination. We take an ethical position and this is generalized as a stereotype to some kind of critical fault in our personalities. That worse forms of discrimination exist, or that you’ve experienced them, doesn’t change that.

      And I’ve “lived through, rejected, and moved past” your thinking, too. I used to be an active member of a religion that has strong roots in both philosophical veganism and in philosophical omnivorism. Circle of live vs All life is sacred sects. You might not realize it, but a lot of people with a lot more understanding of ethics and a lot more philosophical background than you have spent a lot more time thinking about veganism than you have. And I lived through it, rejected it, and came out the other side.

      Now you’re belittling me, ironically. And what was the actual thinking that led you to “come out the other side”? At some point here are you trying to get past all the identity politics and being offended over whatever to actually talk about brass tacks here?

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      • federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        We take an ethical position and this is generalized as a stereotype to some kind of critical fault in our personalities

        it’s not about your ethical position, it’s about your personality faults.

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      • abraxas@sh.itjust.works ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Rambling article that fails to prove its central point

        Glad you concede.

        This whole paragraph is literally the rationalization process

        Thanks for admitting to what you were about to do. I agree, you are doing nothing but rationalizing in that paragraph.

        It is discrimination. We take an ethical position and this is generalized as a stereotype to some kind of critical fault in our personalities - incorrectly

        Please admit that the above quote, too, is rationalization.

        Ironically the “zealots” were a Jewish sect that objected to the unethicalness of Roman rule and were trying to throw it off

        You are doing one of three things. Either you do not know what people tend to mean by “zealot”, or you are trying to change a topic you know you cannot win, or you are arguing in bad faith. Please let me know which.

        Now you’re belittling me, ironically

        Not really. I am telling you that you’re not the only (or most) educated and prepared person in the vegan/meat discussion. Unless we take “vegans are axiomatically right”, you have a fairly massive burden of proof if you want to continue being offended by the idea that a non-vegan can have a 3-digit IQ.

        Thanks for the discussion. Don’t reply.

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      • federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Buddha’s reasoning for when eating meat is excusable does not apply to animal agriculture at all

        i don’t think you’ve ever asked buddha about it.

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      • federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        What is the grand scientific/philosophical reasoning you used to decide that it’s A-OK to use & abuse animals for human gain?

        no one said abuse is ok.

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      • federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        where people flare up into an emotional shitstorm instead of talking about it calmly and rationally.

        lol. from the user who feels the need to announce a block because they don’t like when i tell them they’re wrong.

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      • federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        You sure do rationalize the shit out of how we’re worse than you because we have stricter/consistent moral standards though!

        You internalize that somebody pointing out an ethical issue is attacking you personally

        you are attacking them personally.

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• SnowdenHeroOfOurTime@unilem.org ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Yeah just use the word militant even if the word after it isn’t even accurate and you’ll be extra correct 💯

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  • abraxas@sh.itjust.works ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Oh I agree, but the topic here is militant vegans :)

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    • federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      militancy would be stopping dairy production. what’s happening here is evangelistic.

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      • abraxas@sh.itjust.works ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        I would use the word proselytizing, myself. Evangelize is a loaded term.

        But honestly, zealotry is zealotry. I look at pushy people like many of those I’ve seen in this thread (or whatever we call it in Lemmy), and they remind me of the guy in the subway wearing a billboard and screaming that I’m going to hell if I don’t repent and go to whatever the church of the hour seems to be.

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