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Comment on Rishi Sunak says people ‘can’t be any sex they want to be’ in new swipe at trans community

Okay, someone please help me understand as I genuinely want to.

I fully understand gender neutral (I am bringing up my own children to not restrict their behaviour and personalities due to gender norms because of the the sex they were assigned at birth), I understand being born ‘male’ but feeling more like the societal definition of a ‘girl’ in terms of both physical and social characteristics. I understand the difference between sex and gender.

I understand and believe that our body is our own and if somebody wants to change their body they should be able to do so as they see fit, including changing it to meet the societal norms in terms of appearance of another sex.

But here is what I don’t fully grasp (but would like to) - why is it wrong to say that those born with a biologically male body should go to the male ward in a hospital? Isn’t that where they would receive the best treatment for themselves? Aren’t gender pronouns useful when distinguishing between biological differences in the medical field?

I don’t mean any offense to anybody with these questions. I fully support everyone’s right to identify as anywhere on the spectrum of the social construct of gender. Also, if there is a more suitable community for me to ask these questions in, please do share it.

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TwistedFox@kbin.social ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
As someone who is not LGBTQ+ but is trying to understand it myself, the biggest key to "getting it" is separating sex and gender. Sex would be your biological make up, regardless of genital configuration. That's your classic XX vs XY vs the rare "non-standard". It's important to note that there are multiple types of different physical configurations that are "male or female" - Anatomical, Hormonal, Chromosomal, and Cellular - and they frequently do not line up 100%.

Gender is separate from this as a mental construct/thought pattern. For most people, these two things line up, and that is your standard Cis person. A Trans person is where their mental configuration does not match their physical configuration. When this causes significant mental distress we call it gender dysphoria. For the rest, we call it being Trans, non-Binary or something else.

Isn’t that where they would receive the best treatment for themselves? Aren’t gender pronouns useful when distinguishing between biological differences in the medical field?

Why would there be a difference between gendered wards in the quality of the care? Health care is tailored to the patient, where in the hospital they are located shouldn't affect it.

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- geophysicist@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Healthcare is tailored to the patient, and thus the specialists in the flavour of healthcare needed are assigned to the relevant wards. It’s a recipe for medical mistakes if the patients get mixed
  
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  - Emperor@feddit.uk ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    When I was in hospital I was on a floor devoted to ailments of the leg and foot. This was divided up into wards of 5 with them being all male or all female. The only difference in treatment between the wards (as far as I could tell) is there was a male nurse as part of the team overseeing two wards (one high visibility, one standard). I’d imagine he would have been able to provide the same level of care on a female ward but it could possibly have been handy to have him on male wards for the older,. possibly more confused, patients who might accept more direct instructions from a male nurse. However, I saw no evidence for this.
    
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  - Lazylazycat@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    What are you on about? When I (a woman) got eye surgery and put on a mixed ward afterwards to recover, how did it affect my treatment?
    
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    geophysicist@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Ah sorry, I didn’t realise that eyes were especially different between the sexes
    
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ryi@beehaw.org ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
A couple points to get you started:

It isn’t really the case that said wards are specialising in the way you’re describing, but if they did, why wouldn’t you want (e.g.) all women (cis or trans) who are expecting their blood test results to reflect a certain balance range of hormones, or whose body fat locations and distributions are coded to be the same to be treated together? Especially after SRS, what benefit do you see from placing them in a “men’s” ward?

I understand you’ve drawn a distinction between “sex” and “gender” but “biological sex” isn’t binary, it’s bimodal, and although we don’t yet fully understand how it comes to be that people are gay or trans, there are a lot of compelling reasons to suggest that a lot of people may be trans for biological reasons. In which case, if you want to look at it from a diagnostic perspective, you’ll struggle to meaningfully define what “biologically female” means, and you’ll be more inclined to see it as “has had/not had high exposure to testosterone during formative years”. And as a trait, that can occur also to cis men and women alike, for multitudes of reasons. Biology just happens to be quite complicated, is all.
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- m0nky@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Thanks for the reply. I’m going to pick out a couple of specific points to check my understanding.
  
  !why wouldn’t you want (e.g.) all women (cis or trans) who are expecting their blood test results to reflect a certain balance range of hormones!<
  
  Are you referring here to individuals who have undergone hormonal replacement therapy? If so, yes, that I totally understand and hadn’t considered.
  
  !“biological sex” isn’t binary, it’s bimodal,!<
  
  Okay, so in very simple terms, we’re saying that biologically, man and woman isn’t such a clear distinction, for a very simple example, some men have much higher levels of testosterone, etc.? If so, I can understand that too. But, I suppose it is the actual biological parts that are different, which I was thinking about.
  
  So, if somebody with born as ‘female’ body parts undergoes hormonal and sex changing therapy, their reason for being in a hospital is probably more important than the sex they were assigned at birth, and so they should be able to choose the best option for them?
  
  Am I right in thinking the main issues is that we have created a society in which sex and gender were separated and defined so distinctly, that for transexual individuals, there just is no ‘correct’ option available to them?
  
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  - ondoyant@beehaw.org ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    
    But, I suppose it is the actual biological parts that are different, which I was thinking about.
    
    one thing i think is important to recognize is that, while gender is socially constructed, so is sex to some extent. we have a number of features we generally say are “male” or “female” characteristics, including genitalia, but keep in mind that there are around 1-2% of the population that are born intersex. the way we determine sex assigned at birth is almost always through an inspection of genitalia, but for some people that isn’t conclusive.
    
    in a lot of places, doctors will attempt “fix” these natural variations, deciding for the child which category they belong in. there is enough variation from “male” and “female” characteristics, and enough people with traits from both categories, that the categories themselves can’t really be said to have a purely biological origin, even if statistically they are highly correlated.
    
    Am I right in thinking the main issues is that we have created a society in which sex and gender were separated and defined so distinctly, that for transexual individuals, there just is no ‘correct’ option available to them?
    
    that’s very much part of the problem. lots of trans people really don’t fit neatly into the boxes doctors currently expect of them, especially once they’ve gone on hormones, and sharply delineating sex categories like doctors do measurably leads to less positive health outcomes for trans people. the intersex population is also affected by this kind of marginalization.
    
    the reality is that the health of a person has a lot more to do with their specific traits than it does with the collection of traits a sex category expects them to have, which is in reality composed of a cluster of related physical, cognitive, and social traits that can vary independently of one another, and affect our health in specific ways. assuming any of these traits are one way simply because of how somebody’s genitals are supposed to be is almost always going to be more wrong than just allowing people to describe and denote their personal experience as they see fit. checking M or F on a box is, unfortunately, not really the same as just saying you have a penis or a vagina. it implies a lot more than that, even if your personal experience does not align with that implication.
    
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    m0nky@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I feel much better informed on the issue now. Thanks.
    
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- geophysicist@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Good explanation!
  
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Chetzemoka@startrek.website ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Hi, I’m a nurse so let me chime in here from direct experience.

those born with a biologically male body should go to the male ward in a hospital? Isn’t that where they would receive the best treatment for themselves? Aren’t gender pronouns useful when distinguishing between biological differences in the medical field?

NOPE! Unequivocally NOPE. We don’t separate hospital wards based on gender. Your gender has absolutely zero fuck all not one thing to do with your general biology and medical care. Doesn’t change or impact what we do in the least regarding your internal organs - heart, kidneys, lungs, all get approached the same.

What does change what we do is your weight which affects medication doses. And in very, very, very niche specific situations the anatomy of your genitals changes what we do. (Say, if you’re having a problem urinating, the length of your urethra and any potential obstacles like a prostate will matter.)

But see, here’s the things about that: We can’t approach the genital anatomy of two different individuals who both identify as male with the exact same treatment plan. The exact things we do are hyperspecific to the particular anatomy of that individual person. So if we’re dealing with a trans woman who didn’t have bottom surgery and still has a vestigial penis, then it doesn’t make any difference that she’s trans. We need to approach the anatomy that is present in front of us, whatever shape and condition it’s in regardless of the sociological characteristics of the person to whom the anatomy is attached.

I think part of the confusion in the general public with medical care is the assumption that everyone who identifies as the same gender as you has very similar anatomy to you. Let me tell y’all, I have seen more genitals than a Las Vegas prostitute, and there is more variation than I would ever have imagined. You can’t go by a person’s stated gender and know exactly what you’re gonna get, even if that person is cis. The number of times you lift that gown on somebody and go, “What the fuck is going on here?!” that has nothing to do with a person being trans or not, y’all just have no idea lol.

All medical care is approached specifically toward you as an individual person. Your particular responses to medications (which we can’t predict by the way - there’s an absurd amount of educated trial and error involved) and your particular anatomy. And 90% of the time, the response to anatomical variations is just “Huh, that’s unusual. Anyway, you can pee without any problems, right? Ok good idgaf ¯\_(ツ)_/¯”

The only time your sociological characteristics come into play is when I’m talking to you about your life, providing education, trying to understand your obstacles to medical care.

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