Comment on Bazzite the popular SteamOS-like Linux gets NVIDIA support in Beta
quarterlife@lemmy.sdf.org 1 week agoCloud native is the end product too. The point of my firmness with you was not to express that I don’t care about windows users – quite the contrary, none of this would exist without that – but to express that I don’t care about your issue with the definition of a defined word.
luciferofastora@lemmy.zip 1 week ago
What bearing does it have on use of the end product? If I am a German Native, but move to France, and someone asks me where I live, what difference does it make whether I’m German Native?
Bazzite isn’t cloud based in the sense of “runs in the cloud”. If you install it on your computer, it runs on your computer. It’s not a cloud resident, in the sense of that analogy, no matter whether it was born there.
Unless it does, in which case it would seem that the term isn’t quite so clear as you think.
My issue isn’t with the definition, but with the implicit assumption that it’s well known or easy to understand, as well as the way it is used. We had that discussion over in the other thread already, but the gist of your replies has always been “I don’t care if the term is useless or can be misunderstood. It’s correct, so it stays.” That stance is my issue.
doomcanoe@sh.itjust.works 1 week ago
Bruh, they literally link to their definition, right there where it’s first mentioned on the home page… You literally copied the link when you copied their first paragraph in your previous comment.
You may not like the way it’s being used, but you can’t get any further away from “assuming it’s easy to understand” than a link to your meaning.
And on that note, you said you couldn’t find a definition of Atomic on Fedora’s site… So I clicked just one link from your posted link their and found this.
I read your posted argument from earlier, and I want to believe you when you argue your goal is to make Linux more accessible. But the reality of your arguments seem to tell a different story. You seem more interested in dying on a pointless hills while dissuading interested converts from trying what is one of the most stable and user friendly distros I’ve ever tried.
Linux is going to have a LOT of terms a new user will have to learn. The idea of a cloud native image may cause a misconception, but no more so than any of the other myriad terms a new user will have to learn.
luciferofastora@lemmy.zip 1 week ago
You mean the link that aays
and assumes those terms already mean something to you? Oh wait, cloud native is a link again let’s see…
Great! Two more technical terms! Oh, there’s another text further down the page.
Nope, still no explanation, but we’ve got another link, this time to an actual definition:
Aaaand it’s another wall of technical terms.
What is “easy to understand” about this, unless you’re already familiar enough with that specific technical field that it really isn’t an issue in the first place? A definition directed at experts is no explanation, and hitting a reader with a wall of terms they don’t even know how to classify, let alone understand, isn’t very accessible.
Sorry, I didn’t think I’d have to “Get started” on a particular distro to find a note on what the whole “atomic” thing they advertise is about. Wouldn’t have killed them to put that paragraph on the previous page already, just a small note at the top, to explain the selling point they’re using.
That’s an issue I’ve complained about before: The entry barrier is too high still. People shouldn’t have to learn a lot of new terms, if at all possible. In that vein, it’s better to start out with distros that require less learning, and if the interest grips you, start learning and exploring from there.
But if you have to learn terms, it should be ordered from most fundamental and universal to most specific, and I’d put “cloud native” in the back half of that spectrum. You’ll need to know what a file system is, for instance, may need to learn the term distro / distribution and many more, but for the immediate operation of a system, you don’t need to know what OCI, Docker, Podman, Kubernetes, Prometheus, deploying, workloads or “loosely coupled systems that interoperate in a manner that is secure, resilient, manageable, sustainable, and observable” mean.
So I genuinely do recommend starting out with something less laden with technical terms, and working your way up from there. I started out with Ubuntu, now I’m using Nobara and plan to use my old spare drive to try some other flavours like Silverblue. It’s not that I don’t think the learning isn’t worth it, it’s just that it shouldn’t be frontloaded.
My gripe with Bazzite isn’t whether it’s user friendly, but whether its maintainers are. The founder made a point of telling people “the more I see this whining the more I want to keep it on the website”, because it’s an accurate definition, no matter how useless. I like reasonable discussion, I can accept personal disagreement, but what I’m seeing here is a user providing a prime example of the confusion the word causes and the founder replying to the effect of “now I want to use it even more”.
That’s the exact opposite of accessibility. That’s someone saying “By the way, this is a barrier” and getting the reply “Yes, and people complaining about it makes me want to keep it.” It’s not even “Sorry, this can’t be helped” so much as “I want this barrier to be there” for no good reason.
So that is a hill I will fight on, not because of the specific term but because of the culture behind it that plagues the tech sphere at large. We’re building walls of technical understanding requirements instead of bridges of explanations. Some walls are reasonable, some necessary, some harmless. Some gaps are too wide for a single bridge to cross, so you’ll need to take a detour over other concepts. But building walls out of spite, along with (not represented here, but also common) scoffing at those looking to build bridges or telling people looking for entry “just scale the wall”, are communication culture issues that serve to isolate rather than integrate.
doomcanoe@sh.itjust.works 1 week ago
Yeah, and if you click enough links on Wikipedia you always wind up at logic, math, or philosophy. At some point, you are going to have to read new words to learn new things. And it will get increasingly technical as you go deeper.
But bazzite devs don’t just leave you up shit’s creek with a turd for a paddle. They still make installing and gaming on Linux far more accessible than the majority of other distros. With a significantly smaller learning curve. And provide solid guides for new users that use beginner friendly language.
And therein lies the crux of my problem with your argument. Scaring folks away to seek out another distro where they will almost certainly have to learn more to get started is hurting your stated cause. You claim to be fighting the good fight against “unreasonable barriers of entry”, but you are causing more than you are solving. Over a very ignorable term.
When it was just you arguing over the value of the term with the dev, okay, whatever. But when you throw a new user asking for help out to sea because you had an argument that has no bearing on the significant reduction to the barrier of entry to Linux gaming that Bazzite provides, you are shooting your own goal in the head.
You didn’t care that they used a single term that might cause confusion, you didn’t care that a person who was looking for help on getting started with Linux gaming was asking about installing one of the most beginner friendly distros, you wanted to win an argument and hold a grudge.
Maybe you don’t even see it yourself, the road to hell is paved with good intentions after all, but the obvious outcome of your actions directly go against the goals you claim to have.