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Comment on I'm surprised it hasn't been taken down yet ...well maybe not that surprised

thesporkeffect@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

Ok, I believe you are sincere and appreciate the perspective. There’s a difference between doxing Nick Fuentes, and doxing every trump voter. (In my opinion)

Do you believe violence can ever be considered justified? If you are a pure dogmatic pacifist, I believe your position is logically consistent.

If not: what circumstances can justify violence? Can the police or the military act within morality? Is justice defined by law or outcome?

If the state is unable or unwilling to protect a marginalized group of people, at what point does it become moral to defend themselves?

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GrymEdm@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
Well, thanks for talking to me in good faith. I’m trying to make good faith arguments. It’s really difficult to give a hard line about where violence is just because I’m sure ambiguity exists.

Talking about the military: a declaration of civil war to save the country is a lot different than “his house is flammable” or “it would be a real shame if he was dealt with at night” which are exactly the kinds of things being said about Fuentes right now, on Lemmy. He’s undeniably a piece of shit, but vigilante killing isn’t alright. There are good reasons why soldiers killing others in the context of anti-fascist formal war would be treated differently than mob justice. If soldiers took it upon themselves to kill Fuentes without a declaration of civil war or something similarly legal, that would just be deployment of troops against American citizens. E.g. Lincoln didn’t tell Northerners to head South and start indiscriminately killing to end slavery, it was a war with rules like the chance to surrender, etc.

Things like actual rape and murder should merit at least an attempt at justice within the bounds of law. And as far as I know, Fuentes hasn’t done either - people right now want him dead because of his words. As an example, people didn’t kill the January 6 protesters - they got put through the legal system and were punished. Would you argue that it would have been a proud and just moment in US history if those hundreds of rioters should have been identified and murdered back in 2021, by other civilians, without trial? I know Trump might release them - does that possibility mean they should have been murdered by a counter mob back then? They weren’t just talking like Fuentes either, they straight up attempted a coup.

Israelis regularly kill non-violent Palestinians in the West Bank. They put Palestinians, including children, into prison without charges or trial, and some of them end up raped and tortured. It’s called administrative detention and it’s done because “the threat must be contained”. It’s also an enormous injustice. I feel the same way about extrajudicial killings of civilians, even if I think they’re terrible people. I wouldn’t support Ukrainian forces slaughtering Russian towns that could be proven to support Putin, even though I hate Putin.

It’s the election loss that seems to be fuelling the rapid escalation of rhetoric here on Lemmy. I saw lots of bullying before, but not many people calling for actual killing. Why is it that the election loss, alone because nothing else has happened yet, made vigilantism ethical?
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