Comment on Absolutely nothing happened June 1989

• Cowbee@lemmy.ml ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Thanks for linking the article. I like most of its points, but I don’t agree with this materialistic outlook that the economic development is the be-all and end-all solution to implementing “true” socialism.

  There’s no such thing as “true socialism,” that’s part of the point of the article.

  I believe that the root cause of all attempts of it failing so far is that humans are selfish assholes. Unless everyone bar none starts caring about their brethren and sistren at least as much as they care about themselves, the system can’t work. It’s simply too prone to being overtaken by bad faith actors who will inevitably abuse it for self serving purposes in the name of “socialism”.

  Why do you think Socialism cares about thinfs like self-serving people?

  Well maybe these two guys were a product of their time and had some not-so-good ideas, so not every word of theirs should be taken as a gospel.

  Not as gospel, sure, but they have been proven correct.

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  • shroomato@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    There’s no such thing as “true socialism,” that’s part of the point of the article.

    Sure, but it provided a reason why the previous attempts of it failed, and in my opinion it’s only a part of the equation.

    Why do you think Socialism cares about thinfs like self-serving people?

    Socialism can not care, as it’s is not a conscious entity. Socialism can only “care” about whatever the people that are trying to implement it care about. And it failed every time in large part, IMO, because people didn’t care about things like self-serving people.

    Not as gospel, sure, but they have been proven correct.

    Proven correct by whom? Soviet Union which fell apart? North Korea that haven’t collapsed yet only because it’s propped by China? China which had Mao starve tens of millions people to death and is currently successful only because it’s full blown capitalist and “communist” in name only?

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    • Cowbee@lemmy.ml ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Sure, but it provided a reason why the previous attempts of it failed, and in my opinion it’s only a part of the equation.

      No, AES worked. It provided a reason why AES states weren’t and aren’t perfect paradises that only exist in imagination.

      Socialism can not care, as it’s is not a conscious entity. Socialism can only “care” about whatever the people that are trying to implement it care about. And it failed every time in large part, IMO, because people didn’t care about things like self-serving people.

      Socialism works, it just isn’t a magical wonderland. That’s the point.

      Proven correct by whom? Soviet Union which fell apart? North Korea that haven’t collapsed yet only because it’s propped by China? China which had Mao starve tens of millions people to death and is currently successful only because it’s full blown capitalist and “communist” in name only?

      USSR did work. PRC does work as well, and is Socialist, not Capitalist. Read Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism and Blackshirts and Reds Cuba works, Vietnam works, Laos works too.

      Mao didn’t “starve a bunch of people,” Mao ended famines in one of the poorest countries in the world, something Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism proves.

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      • shroomato@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        No, AES worked

        If it worked we’d still have Soviet Union today.

        USSR did work. PRC does work as well, and is Socialist, not Capitalist. Read Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism and Blackshirts and Reds Cuba works, Vietnam works, Laos works too.

        We seem to have different definitions of what “working” means. What I’ve got from the article, which glosses over the inconvenient facts (like how much of China’s success can be attributed to western capitalists moving all of their manufacturing to China), is that you can do whatever the fuck you want and still call it socialism. And your fans will believe you, because they don’t care to look deeper beneath the label. The party line trumps all.

        Mao didn’t “starve a bunch of people,” Mao ended famines in one of the poorest countries in the world

        So what is the Great Chinese Famine then? Another inconvenient fact in the sea of inconvenient facts that you chose to close your eyes to? Do you think that lying to yourself and everyone else about historical facts like this one gives you a moral high ground over Nazi sympathizers who deny holocaust?

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