Comment on If you want communism, you can start a commune
redempt@lemmy.world 2 months agookay, why are you imposing that on me though? I’m not a violent revolutionary, I’m just someone who believes we need a far more democratic approach to our economy. I can’t resolve a perfect system for you in perfect detail and I find this kind of argument frustrating. if you want an example of a system, I believe something similar to project cybersyn would be great. unfortunately the US has overthrown or otherwise stunted every socialist project, but we have lots of data to suggest that UBI, co-ops, and social welfare are highly effective at improving quality of life for everybody, as well as productivity.
DreamlandLividity@lemmy.world 2 months ago
You are the one who said it was not vague. If you don’t want communism, but just social policies in capitalism, then I am on board with that.
redempt@lemmy.world 2 months ago
co-ops get outcompeted by corporations. this is a capitalist economy we have, and so it’s very geared towards competitive profit seeking. co-ops provide better worker protections, better working conditions, better stability and resilience, and better products. corporations are better at being single-mindedly profit driven, which is what our economic structure rewards.
communism is not a vague concept, but I’m not an expert and it’s not my ideology; I’m a democratic socialist.
it’s important to remember that under capitalism a company is very much motivated to curtail workers’ rights and anything that would threaten the status quo. I find “just start a commune” to be an unhelpful argument because the system is rigged against it, which is why they tend to fail.
capitalism is not markets, nor is it free trade. capitalism is the specific system where there is an owning class that dictates how the economy is run (CEOs / shareholders), thereby holding that power away from the working class, whose lives are dictated by their decisions. I see no reason for the economy to be organized this way, which is why I believe democratic organization (either central planning or a more bottom-up approach) is an improvement.
if you’re genuinely interested in finding a system better than what we have, I don’t think arguing with strangers on the Internet will accomplish what you want. I think Second Thought makes some very good videos on these topics, though he seems to have some authoritarian leanings I don’t agree with.
DreamlandLividity@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Remember that profit and created value go hand in hand, or at least, our legislation should make sure it does.
True, but corporations have to generate profit for shareholders. This is the profit that should be used for improving worker conditions etc. by communes. Also, some worker protections should be legislated leveling the playing field even more.
At least here on Lemmy it seems to be. Kinda makes no difference to me if someone has the secrets to successful communism if I can’t see them.
Within the company, sure. Outside, it has motivation to hinder any competition and this has to be prevented by govt. regardless of whether the competition is a co-op or a corp.
I am not accepting this without concrete examples. How is it rigged?
That is a misconception. Any individual CEO/shareholder have very little control of how the economy is run. And while they may cooperate in some areas and situations, they are ultimately competitors most of the time. If you make the simple assumption that they chase profit, than they have even less control. I think they are far closer to just another cog in the machine then to any dictators. That is the appeal of capitalism, as long as you align your goals with profit for corporations, they will fulfill your goals with ruthless efficiency.
redempt@lemmy.world 2 months ago
anticompetitive and anti labor practices are fundamental to capitalism - you can regulate them all you want, companies will always find ways around it. wage theft (overtime violations, unpaid or underpaid wages, off the clock violations, etc) significantly outweigh all other forms of theft (larceny, robbery, vehicle theft, etc) combined.
in addition, something like planned obsolescence (companies intentionally making their products less long-lived so you have to buy more of them) cannot be completely prevented with regulation, since companies can always choose not to make their product better in a particular way, or no better than the absolute minimum requirement.
profit measures value extracted, not value generated. providing a service to people (postal service, healthcare) produces a measurable amount of value which is not directly profit. you can always increase profit by paying workers less and charging more for your product, and these both get more effective the more you have cornered the market. a high amount of profit tends to mean a huge amount of money being extracted from communities and working individuals.
capitalism is competitive, and competitions have winners. you can make all the regulations you want, but even when everyone “plays fair” someone will eventually emerge on top.
competition is massively inefficient; you have no incentive to share anything, so huge amounts of redundant research and work gets done without public benefit. I see collaboration as the far greater social force, since it prevents us from undermining each other. an economy which is based on and rewards collaboration rather than competition would be better able to provide for everyone’s needs and ensure nobody is left behind.