Comment on Why is the consumption of Meat considered bad

• 4lan@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  I’ve heard this tired argument that plants and sentient mammals have the same capacity for suffering so many times. I think it is a disingenuous way of excusing the suffering your choices support.

  A plant does not grieve when it’s offspring is removed from it. It does not have fear, or joy. Plants don’t play with each other and bond.

  Yes. They communicate, and react to stimuli. So does a computer, but neither are sentient

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  • ragusa@feddit.dk ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    I don’t think it is disingenuous at all. You may draw the line at sentience, but you have provided no argument for why this is correct. Why must we consider the harm exactly up to sentience? Why must we only consider conscious pain resulting from harm, and not nociception? It is easy to dismiss people as disingenuous, especially if you don’t really have any arguments for your case.

    I don’t see how there can exist any good arguments for where to draw the line, which is why it bothers me when people claim the moral high ground, but cannot offer any arguments on why their behaviour is most morally correct. You can say “reduce suffering of sentient beings”, and most people probably agree, but I think it is completely natural to prioritise yourself, your family and friends and your species above other animals. So how much suffering of yourself is as important as the suffering of a chicken. Probably substantially less. I don’t think you will ever convince anyone of your beliefs by simply denying that their weightings of human-to-animal suffering is wrong and yours is right.

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    • 4lan@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      That’s a lot of rationalization with no facts to back it up.

      I’m getting a “well ackchually” vibe from your comment. If I put a mouse on the ground next to a flower and told you to stomp one of them to death, You would be comfortable with either option equally?

      Yes plants respond to negative stimuli, that doesn’t imply suffering on the level of a conscious being.

      You’re making a lot of assumptions about my beliefs in your comment. I do not believe any animal has more right to life than any other animal. With that said if you are in the woods trying to survive like our ancestors then your biological needs take priority, you can’t survive on plants in winter. The thing is that is not our reality. We are wolfing down red meat giving ourselves colon cancer needlessly. Trading suffering for joy, not suffering for survival

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      • ragusa@feddit.dk ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

        That’s a lot of rationalization with no facts to back it up.

        I, honestly, have no idea what you are talking about. Which facts would you find relevant in a philosophical discussion on morality?

        I’m getting a “well ackchually” vibe from your comment.

        I am sorry you feel that way, that was not my intention.

        If I put a mouse on the ground next to a flower and told you to stomp one of them to death, You would be comfortable with either option equally?

        Honestly I find this example a little comical because I think most people would definitely choose to rid themselves of the pest and keep their pretty flower. However, I do understand your sentiment. I don’t think my personal views really matter, but I have some rough hierarchy of living organism ordering how highly I value their interests. For example, I think a human is more important than a mouse to me, so I would rather kill a mouse than a human, if I had to choose. Similarly, I think a hare is more important than a flower, so I would rather kill a flower than a hare.

        You’re making a lot of assumptions about my beliefs in your comment.

        I am sorry, I have incorrectly conflated your comment with that of the original.

        I do not believe any animal has more right to life than any other animal. With that said if you are in the woods trying to survive like our ancestors then your biological needs take priority, you can’t survive on plants in winter.

        These to statements are completely contradictory. You are more important than other animals, thus you sacrifice them for you own survival. If you have no more “right” to survival than a hare, how is it ethical to kill it to ensure your own survival?

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• NeuralNerd@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  The term sentience has no concrete meaning, so how can you base your moral judgements on this?

  It does have a concrete meaning. Scientific papers usually define what they are studying. For example the Review of the Evidence of Sentience in Cephalopod Molluscs and Decapod Crustaceans has a definition. It also has criteria to evaluate it.

  Plenty of plant life has senses and are able to “feel” things.

  Having reactions to external stimulus is different from having feelings. Feelings require consciousness, or sentience.

  Even having nociceptors doesn’t mean you can experience pain (see the above review in the “Defining sentience” section).

  If something (living or not) cannot experience suffering then you can’t harm it, by definition

  This follows no definition of harm that I am aware of, and I do not agree with it. If you are not aware that you have been harmed, you are still harmed. So you should also be able to be harmed even when you could not be aware of it. Therefore, I do not accept this sentiocentric (just learned this word) argument.

  Yes you can be harmed without knowing it, but it still must have a negative effect on you. If something can’t have negative (or positive) experience then how can you say it’s being harmed?

  If I throw a rock to the ground, it doesn’t make sense to say I harmed the rock, because a rock can’t experience being harmed. Being sentient is having this ability to experience being harmed. That’s why I meant it’s by definition that non sentient beings can’t be harmed. The word exists to distinguish what can and cannot experience harm (among other feelings).

  There are good reasons to treat different beings differently but they should be based on the beings’ interests, not their species

  And this is one of those reasons. A human’s (or any other animal’s) continued existence is mutually exclusive with the food’s continued existence.

  But having food doesn’t necessarily mean harming something. And even if it does, different foods have different level of harm. We can choose the foods that minimize harm.

  If we do not follow speciest dogma, we might as well eat other humans.

  Indeed meat eaters don’t really have good reasons to exclude human meat.

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  • ragusa@feddit.dk ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Scientific papers usually define what they are studying.

    When I say concrete meaning I mean that sentience is an abstract concept of which we can observe evidence of, but we cannot define clearly what it is. In the report you mentioned, you will see that they give 8 criteria for scientific evidence of sentience, i.e. these do not define what sentience is, but they are criteria that we presume sentient beings should satisfy. They even require several pages to explain the complications of how to define sentience and how to observe it.

    I do admit that the extent of study on sentience of animals is greater than I initially thought, and I can see that one might have reasonably sufficient knowledge to judge, with some certainty, which life organism might be sentient (under definitions such as the one used in the report). But it seems to me nearly all animals fall under this umbrella of “some level of sentience”, I found this paper highlighting that many insects seem to have cognitive abilities, and might be capable of feeling harm. So to what extent must this go, can you not swat a mosquito in fear of its suffering?

    If I throw a rock to the ground, it doesn’t make sense to say I harmed the rock, because a rock can’t experience being harmed

    But a rock is not alive, there is no evolutionary force driving its interest, as with all other living organisms. A sea cucumber has no proper nervous system (as I understand from a quick search), and thus could not “feel” pain. Yet, if you cut one in half, I would say that you have harmed it. But this is really just discussing the semantics of the word “harm”, the real point is that you are doing something to the organism that goes against its natural interests.

    If we do not follow speciest dogma, we might as well eat other humans. Indeed meat eaters don’t really have good reasons to exclude human meat.

    Yes they do, speciesism. A quite natural reason.

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    • NeuralNerd@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      But it seems to me nearly all animals fall under this umbrella of “some level of sentience”, I found this paper highlighting that many insects seem to have cognitive abilities, and might be capable of feeling harm. So to what extent must this go, can you not swat a mosquito in fear of its suffering?

      Swatting a mosquito generally doesn’t induce suffering, if it’s done quickly. And since they are not social animals other mosquito probably won’t suffer from the loss.

      But yes, if an animal is probably sentient you should avoid inflicting pain to it, for the same reason you should avoid inflicting pain to humans: because they can suffer.

      But this is really just discussing the semantics of the word “harm”, the real point is that you are doing something to the organism that goes against its natural interests.

      Indeed, but going against natural interests or not is not the point. The point is about suffering. And more specifically the fact that the amount of suffering we inflict to animals to eat their meat would be inacceptable if it was done to humans.

      If we do not follow speciest dogma, we might as well eat other humans. Indeed meat eaters don’t really have good reasons to exclude human meat.

      Yes they do, speciesism. A quite natural reason.

      That’s like saying people have good reasons to beat people who don’t look like them because racism.

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      • ragusa@feddit.dk ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

        Swatting a mosquito generally doesn’t induce suffering, if it’s done quickly. And since they are not social animals other mosquito probably won’t suffer from the loss.

        This is like saying it is okay to kill a lonely person with no friends and family, as long as it is an instant death.

        The point is about suffering.

        I don’t agree with you that suffering is the single center concept to base your moral judgement on these issues. Not all living things that i care about are able to suffer, and I do not care about all living things that do suffer. I do not care that i cause a mosquito suffering by killing it (wounding it), if it is sucking my blood, or even just being annoying when flying around me, because I value my comfort above its existence (and suffering). I expect you do the same? This is speciesism.

        That’s like saying people have a good reason to beat people who don’t look like them: racism.

        Except we both agree that racism is wrong. We do not both agree that speciesism is wrong.

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