Comment on Anon notices what they've taken from us
Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 8 months agoNow go that and create a model for it applicable to every real world use case that
That wasn’t you claim. You said all lossy compression is useless. Is a pixel there that was in the source? It’s a test that anyone can agree on. Which is beside the point that a better quality camera is an objectively testable feature.
That two cameras could give images that are so close as to result in subjective judgement as to which is better isn’t what we are discussing. Unless you are going to get weird and claim you prefer a blurry pixelated image.
Those lack depth and specific information, i wouldn’t be making that point if that wasn’t a problem
Because it isn’t a problem! If you want to look at the Android source code and see how it multi threads based on the number big cores and little cores you can. But an end user does not need to read that documentation to use their phone. It is completely transparent to the phone user.
Nor is how the camera software distributes control to various camera modules a problem for end users. How the camera takes the photo is completely transparent to the end user.
i’d much rather not spend modern premiums to get features that are a decade old.
Most of those 100 million cameras purchasers every year were not buying a camera for the first time in their life. Most were upgrading from their old camera. They bought the new camera to take better photos.
I already linked the study that showed people buy new phones primarily to take better photos.
Especially when i can buy a modern used camera for a few hundred bucks, and get image quality MILES better
The best camera is the one you have with you. You claimed you almost never take photos but now you are claiming you would buy another gadget to carry around all the time?
this isn’t true. Unless you place the cameras in the EXACT same location, there will be differences in parallax.
Yes a professional comparing a non zoomed and zoomed could tell they were taken from a different position. So what? The end user doesn’t need to care. The UI is pinch to zoom. That’s it.
Besides the actual parallax change will be smaller than a human hand is capable of being steady. The lenses are 1cm apart. Taking a picture 10 m away ( and really you would use zoom for things much farther ) yields an angle change of .01 degrees. Hand motion is why photographers have the 1/f rule. Your hands can’t keep a camera perfectly steady.
And besides, maybe i dont want it to forcibly switch, maybe i want to have control over the hardware i paid for and own?
Then download a pro camera app. But your original claim that extra lenses are a burden on the end user is false. The default camera UI presents a seamless UI to the user just like the user doesn’t have to know how many and what types of cores are in their phone in order to use it.
You can’t tell me that the minor difference in quality between camera A and B is significant enough to warrant B over A or vice versa.
Is your claim that there is absolutely no measurable difference between any cameras ever? Because that’s what you are arguing.
I claim my Pixel 7pro camera is objectively better than the camera in my 11 year old Galaxy Nexus. This isn’t iPhone 15 vs Pixel 8 pro where both are so equally matched that it becomes subjective.
You claimed you don’t see a need for more than one lens on a smartphone. I explained the technical reasons why phones have use multiple lenses to do what compact digital cameras can do with one lens.
Consumer now buy smartphones every few years for the better camera just like the bought better cameras every few years before smartphones existed.
KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 months ago
as an analogue to your point about the camera being objectively better. My point is that you can’t boil everything down to objective facts, even if it is true, there are a number of other variables.
With lossy compression, that quite literally gets thrown out the window the second it’s used. If that’s the standard then all lossy compression is bad. The question is at what point, does N amount of deviation from the original image, make it noticeably different from the original image, to the point that it negatively affects the image more than the space it saves. That’s the hard part to quantify. And yet we use lossy compression everywhere. Literally nobody can agree what standard of compression is acceptable. I for one never touch HW accelerated encoding because it’s not efficient, and introduces artifacts. Yet other people are perfectly content using it. I would much rather store the original source file, even if it’s insanely big, over HW encoding it down to something more manageable, and potentially forever altering that file.
It depends on what standardized photo testing you use. If i can take a photo roughly 2-10 feet in front of me, and it looks decent. I do not care about anything else. If it’s outside of that range my eyesight is bad enough it doesn’t matter anyway. A phone with a built in zoom lense might be able to take better far shot photos. But i never take those, so it’s useless to me.
i mean, if we include photo processing, that’s just not true, unless major phone manufacturers have started open sourcing their software since i last checked.
i didnt look at it, but im not going to discount it either, frankly i just don’t care. I just don’t think more than like 30-40% of why people buy a new phone is to take better photos, maybe thats how they justify spending that money to themselves, i could see that. But JUST for better photos? idk. Maybe i’m just a bad capitalist who doesnt spend enough money.
as you already said "the best camera is the one you have with you, you continually brought up editing, and real world use cases where having a better camera would make sense. Which is where i would use that actual camera, i just don’t really care about the quality of the pictures i take that aren’t supposed to be actual media. It’s fine enough as is. Being any better isn’t going to appreciably change that.
i didn’t say that, i just stated that at a certain point, an end user is going to stop caring about a “feature” when it’s feature set is severely convoluted. Maybe i actually just care about what i spend my money on, and other people don’t. But i like knowing what im buying, before i spend my money on it.
no my claim is that anything that is 80% efficacy is going to be more than fine, your claim is that 99% efficacy is worse than 100% efficacy, which is true, but not perceptible.
i claim my iphone 5 as having a better camera than the leapfrog leappad. My point there, even though you have butchered it incredibly, is quite literally the difference between a pixel 8 and an iphone 15. You can’t go back to before multi cameras, because a modern single camera phone will still have improved since then.
i know, but for the same reason that i don’t care about a 4090 ti being faster than a 1070 due to its price being fascinatingly high. I don’t care about phones with more than one camera having better camera quality. I just dont want that feature.
Literally this entire thread started with “still don’t understand the appeal of multi camera phones” or something like that, it’s paraphrased. I know there are technical reasons one would do that, but i just can’t justify it for what it provides. Unless i see an actual proper realistic breakdown, of which exactly NONE exist. So i couldn’t line them up even if i wanted to. I’m just left to my own devices to see what else could be done. And so i just dont care. Same reason i dont care about phones having high refresh rates, it just wastes processing power, it feels smoother sure. I don’t really care though. I use it like 10 minutes out of my day maybe. Swiping sideways at 90hz doesn’t matter if i dont use it anyway. (dont bother explaining the difference to me, because i own multiple 144hz displays, i already know.)
Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 8 months ago
And my point is that you can measure blurry image from a clear one. It’s not subjective. Is a glass back better? Maybe. Is one photo better than another? That can be measured. It is only when two cameras take photos are almost indistinguishable that it becomes subjective.
There is a difference between blurring a little and blurring a lot. I already discussed the trade of of size vs quality that allows you to compare lossy compression. That’s why JPEG has a quality option and chroma subsampling option. You can control how much detail is lost. If it literally got thrown out the window, a jpeg could not be recognizable as the original.
I already said it is a trade off of size vs appearance. You are setting up a strawman of “what if we had two cameras that made almost identical photos”
Again, no. This is about taking a photo. The process of taking a photo is the same in my current 3 camera phone as your single camera phone. Your claim that it adds complication to the user is false.
No I didn’t. Please quote. You said you did video editing on a PC which was a complete non sequitur to my comment about your phone having 8 cores.
What are you talking about? Where did I mention percentages before? The Pixel 7pro camera is obviously better than my Pixel 3a in the same way my Nikon DSLR with 300mm lens was obviously better than my Canon S100 digital Elph compact camera. The Pixel 7pro needs 3 cameras to be better than the 3a. 1 camera is wide which the 3a couldn’t do. One camera is about the same as the 3a (probably better if I zoomed carefully). One camera is optical zoom which is so much better than digital zoom it is clearly better. But although I happen to know the details because its my hobby, it requires nothing in the UI to use the 3 cameras. It is completely automatic with the same UI as my older Pixel 3a.
??? There is no significant difference between a Pixel 8 and an iPhone 15. They both have 2 camera modules on the back. The 8 pro and 15 pro both have 3 camera modules on the back.
You said you didn’t see the need for more camera lenses. A Pixel 8 pro can take noticeably better photos than your current iPhone 5 because of the additional lenses.
It only seems convoluted to you because you haven’t used it. You think it must be complicated in the same way someone would think having multiple cores in their phone cpu would be convoluted and hard to use.
The iPhone 5 is so old there aren’t going to be direct comparisons. (or was that a typo and you meant you have an iphone 15) Can I argue that a 10 year old Intel PC is no faster than a current high end AMD PC because there are no websites that directly compare 10 year old PCs to current PCs? There are dozens of reputable websites that reviewed the iPhone 5. There are also reviews of the Pixel 7 pro. GSM area even goes far enough back to directly compare an iPhone 7 to a Pixel 8pro. And that’s not even factoring in optical zoom.
You don’t care but other do. It doesn’t have anything to do with modern phone culture. People upgraded their cameras to take better photos even before digital cameras.