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Comment on Square Enix’s president says it will be ‘aggressive in applying’ AI

funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

I’ve been hearing promises of the human brain being replicated by a PC since the 1980s, so again, politely, I consider that hyperbole/marketing gumpf until we see a working model.

I don’t particularly care if “AI” means a single model, multiple models, or multiple models banded together to appear as a single model or vice versa.

I didn’t realize you can just chop and change models on the fly, but taking those and similar issues as read (or at least probably solvable with modern day tech) — that leaves us with your multiple-AIs with specific functions.

Now I’m not saying it’s theoretically impossible, but i am asking: will you have a working prototype that can be run on a consumer home pc in the next 5 years? Or, are you, as I am very keenly aware of, simply doing what I stated in my first post: being a tech start up promising eventual, incremental process as product features?

Because my experience is, to generate a flat image from a model takes at least 20 seconds, not to mention 3D models with collision, mesh, animations etc. And 20 seconds is considered a long loading screen by modern standards. Gamers expect entire cities/planets to load in their game in under a minute.

Are we even close to generating even an untextured room with a single untextured T-pose NPC with no cues, triggers or animations from AI? Or, would it simply be using a language model to obfuscate the current and standard process for generating those assets to the user, when actually it’s just loading them from RNG.

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Adalast@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

Are we close to generating an untextured room with a single untextured T-pose NPC? This is unnecessary. The environment and characters can all still be built and rigged using modern hand modeling and set design techniques. The get here would be the animations. All animations, and I mean all, are just a bunch of splines and interpolations in the engine. Curve fitting is something that AI’s have been getting trained to do for 50 years. It is a solved problem. What is not solved, and the reason we don’t see a ton of AI animation tools already is a lack of sufficiently large sample sets of good animations attached to a variety of rigs and a method of training the AI to be environmentally aware. I imagine the latter could be solved using computer vision techniques with virtual sensors like what is used for Crowds. It is actually a hypothetical problem that I am planning on tackling after my current project.

Or would it be using a language model to obfuscate using an RNG? This is almost insulting to the entire field of AI development, not to mention the mathematical fields of Probability Theory and Statistics. While AI models do function on Game Theory and Probability Theory models and are probabilistic, they are most definitely not any form of RNG. If you have that mindset, I suggest you do some more reading on the topics in scholarly publications or textbooks. Skip the pop-sci articles and blog posts.

As to your questions on timing, it may be this year, it may be 20 years. 2 years ago the idea of making photoreal images with AI was a pipe dream, then along comes Stable Diffusion and in less than 18 months we have gone from making passable images of a cat to an almost fully art-directable toolset capable of creating coherent videos. This is an amazing progressive leap and AIs in general have become more diverse because of it. It is a testament to just how fast something like this can grow given the right FOSS architecture and public interest. My guess is that it is closer to the 2 to 3-year range for a coherent world-building AI. That is not modeling, rigging, or animating, just the textual stuff. Story, relationships, lore, history, etc. My first tool I am trying to build is a world-building assistant for TTRPG GMs if that gives you a clearer picture of what I’m talking about.

Finally, the geometry generation times. You mention your experience, but I am struggling to pin down exactly what that entails for you. I mentioned using procedural modeling and having an AI that decides the parameters of the procedural when doing the modeling. In this setup the modeling is all mathematics and is done instantly. It can even include procedurally defined animations and affects that are able to be generated on the fly in microseconds. If you have 3D experience, I would suggest checking out Houdini ( www.sidefx.com ) to get a better grip on what is possible with proceduralism. They also have tools for doing rigging and animation that an AI could directly interface with, which can be utilized in game development realms as well as VFX.

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- funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  You misread me when i said RNG - I was saying using a language model to appear as if it’s generating a quest on the fly, but actually its just picking Kill [5-30] [Goblins / Demons / Beasts / Mechs] from a list is not “AI generated quests”
  
  And you misunderstood what I was saying about being a Dev - I said I was not a dev.
  
  I know the following style of reply is a bit rude - but I want to highlight how I said that much of what tech companies are promising with AI is an empty promise that will only lead to semantic satiation of the term “AI” leading it to become a term of derision
  
  can be built with hand modeling techniques
  
  so not AI.
  
  lack of sample sets
  
  so AI can’t do it (yet)
  
  [no] method of training the AI to be env aware
  
  so AI can’t do it (possibly ever)
  
  it may be 20 years
  
  so unlikely to be a reliable marketing promise to consumers in this generation or the next
  
  my guess is it’s closer to 3 years
  
  sounds like marketing bumpf
  
  …just the textual stuff
  
  so not AI generated quests in game as originally promised…
  
  Look, I really don’t mean to pick a fight with you - but saying “I’m working on AI generated quests!” to mean “I’m working on using an existing LLM to create text-based lore entries on my world” is a very different expectation to reality ratio.
  
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  - Adalast@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Your response style is not rude. It is disingenuous confirmation hunting cherry picking. I addressed everything in your response in detail, but you latched on to the qualifiers and clarifications because those are the parts that satisfy your confirmation bias, even though in the full context they mean quite the opposite. I also am recognizing that you are not a dev, not a game designer, not an AI architect nor mathematician or computer scientist. All of this means that scope and breadth of your understanding of the topic you are attempting to belittle and demean is myopic at best. It is obvious that you do not understand what a “quest” in a game is nor what it takes to craft or write one. It is clear that you have 0 understanding of how LLM or AIs as a larger topic function or generate information. You deign to belittle the work that I am doing on this topic without asking a single question or clarifying a single detail from me. I’m sure you are getting a nosebleed for your perch on Mt. Dunning-Kruger. I can see you from my position on the adjacent slope. I will humor you though, since you seem to at least care about the topic, even though you seem utterly incapable of recognizing when something should be informative and educational.
    
    What is a “quest” in a game: The abstract of this article covers some key concepts of both current anf potential future paradigms of quest design in video games. Currently qursts, even handcrafted ones, consist of a list of tasks.
    
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    funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    You took all that to say what I was originally saying 4 or 5 comments higher in the chain: for idle chitchat yes AI could probably do it, but it can’t make quests on the level of CP77’s crucifixion quest, all it can do is choose from preselected parameters - but we don’t need to do that. We have radiant quests already (as mentioned, Preston Garvey…)
    
    Also your character creator randomizer doesn’t need AI, it just needs a restrictive algorithm (maybe not even) not to get too random - ie don’t put lizard hands on a human body, limit how big you can make the nose, ensure skin tone is even…)
    
    Same for your canned goods creator, it doesn’t need AI it just needs a pick list and an RNG. You don’t even need AI to make the picklist, you can just scrape a list of most popular canned goods from Wikipedia or some stats site, and a list of your in-game races/affiliations/species
    
    When you say that in-game characters, geography and props aren’t needed, you’re wrong — going to New locations, meeting new people and seeing unique things is part of what makes a quest interesting. You must of heard of gamers complaining about reused assets and reskinned characters and guns as rewards- adding a system that puts more “kill 5 goblins to get the same sword you’ve got but slightly more blue” will only make the game worse not better.
    
    So, no, AI can’t “do quests” as most people understand them, it can only create busy work, which is considered one of the things dragging the gaming industry down right now.
    
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