Comment on She's just defending her country

• NihilsineNefas@slrpnk.net ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  There were soldiers who just fought as they were told to and without doing anything clearly immoral or illegal

  Please tell me which of the nazi’s orders were moral.

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  • FishFace@piefed.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    • “Go clean out the toilets”

    • “Dig a hole over there”

    • “Listen on this frequency and write down what you hear”

    etc.

    But for actual action, there is also an over-simplification of the moral that, “just following orders” is not a defence: it has only ever been applied to clear violations, like crimes against humanity. Nobody is looking to prosecute individual Russian front-line soldiers for carrying out Putin’s orders to advance in the Donbas, even though ultimately those orders are illegal and immoral, because they are in aid of carrying out a war of aggression.

    I believe this is because of exactly the feeling that I have, that it doesn’t make sense to make individual soldiers responsible for working out that their orders are wrong except in the most obvious circumstances. Any grunt with a conscience can understand that executing civilians, or bombing apartment buildings, should never happen. Expecting them to break through the propaganda that is telling them that the war they are fighting is a just war is stupid, unrealistic and does not achieve anything. Ordinary Russians who keep fighting and dying in Ukraine aren’t doing it because of some unique moral failing that the rest of us upstanding human beings don’t have. Same with ordinary Germans in the Wehrmacht. But some Russians, and some Germans, and some Israelis, went/go beyond all that, and actively take part in atrocities. That’s the dividing line.

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    • NihilsineNefas@slrpnk.net ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

      “Go and move everyone out of that building there, don’t let anyone back in”

      aljazeera.com/…/mapping-forced-displacements-and-…

      “Hand out these leaflets telling them that the area is now off limits”

      globalnews.ca/…/israeli-military-drops-flyers-ord…

      x.com/MosabAbuToha/status/1902527687014424782

      “Build a berm there”

      apnews.com/…/israel-gaza-yellow-line-barrier-ceas…

      “Drive this bulldozer and clear the rubble so we can get through”

      anewpolicy.org/…/d9-armoured-bulldozers-in-the-id…

      “Wire up this camera to the checkpoint network so our system can check everyone is safe”

      …westpoint.edu/israels-use-ai-dss-facial-recognit…

      See, I can make things sound entirely legal and moral, too. Doesnt make them moral actions.

      "exactly the feeling that I have, that it doesn’t make sense to make individual soldiers responsible for working out that their orders are wrong except in the most obvious circumstances. "

      Oh no these poor soldiers having to work out if they should or should not kick families out of their ancestral homes so that israeli settlers can build an apartment complex. Those poor innocent soldiers just doing their job and shooting pregnant women./s

      reuters.com/…/israel-army-bans-t-shirts-mocking-a… <- this was from 2009

      Anyone with eyes and a brain can tell that what they’re doing isn’t in any way shape or form a moral action, and has not been for DECADES.

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      • FishFace@piefed.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

        Yeah, a bunch of those orders would, if carried out, not result in conscripts being convicted by a war crimes tribunal. Maybe some would, idk, but not all, from what I’ve read.

        I think you see the blatant immorality of the effect of Israel’s actions and want to blame everyone for it that you can. But that’s an emotional response, not a rational one. There are those responsible who should be prosecuted, but as the individual gets further away from an architect of that effect, that responsibility necessarily diminishes. If cleaning the toilets is immoral, what about an IDF soldier’s partner who cooks for them when they’re on leave? What about someone who buys an Israeli export? What about someone who fails to go on an anti-genocide march? Surely you’d want all those people to do what they can, but is there a sharp dividing line in criminal responsibility before an international court in there? Because surely you don’t think any of those are guilty of war crimes like those “just following orders” were, even if you do want them to act differently.

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    • 0x0@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

      Any grunt with a conscience can understand that executing civilians, or bombing apartment buildings, should never happen.

      And yet daily in Gaza…

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      • FishFace@piefed.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

        Yes.

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