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Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

Jesus, the person, existed as far as academic consensus is concerned.

Yeah, the academic consensus of Christian theologians 🙄

the New Testament has no historical value with respect to Jesus’s existence

Obviously true.

there are no non-Christian references to Jesus from the first century

Or references to him form ANYONE who were alive at the same time he supposedly was, for that matter.

Christianity had pagan or mythical roots

Also factually accurate.

The idea that Jesus was a purely mythical figure has a fringe status in scholarly circles

Because guess what? The people who choose to dedicate their lives to studying theology or first century Palestine history tend to be people who believe in the myths. It’s inherent confirmation bias.

Next you’re going to tell me that it’s an undisputed fact that draconian punishment reduces crime rates, based on the testimony of cops and conservative demagogues 🙄

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Zombie@feddit.uk ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
I recommend reading the Wikipedia page. It debunks your debunking quite thoroughly.

Christians aren’t the only people to have studied that time period.

Jesus was a man of near no economic means and no military power. The fact there’s even any historical references to him is a klaxon for his existence. I’m from an area of the world that has next to no written records for the entire peoples that lived here throughout several centuries of the early middle ages, and yet it’s not doubted they existed. It seems then pretty difficult to doubt the existence of a single man with which there’s so much written from an even earlier period.

If Jesus existed in modern times I’m sure there’d be conspiracies that the CIA is trying to wipe out the memory of the slave abolitionist and communist revolutionary. But because a cult of personality and religion got built around him for centuries, that is now one of the dominant philosophical and political powers in the world, the opposite view is taken. It’s all a conspiracy, maaaan!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picts

Non-Christian sources used to study and establish the historicity of Jesus include the c. first century Jewish historian Josephus and Roman historian Tacitus. These sources are compared to Christian sources, such as the Pauline letters and synoptic gospels, and are usually independent of each other. Similarities and differences between these sources are used in the authentication process.[103][104][105][106] From these two independent sources alone, certain facts about Jesus can be adduced: that he existed, his personal name was Jesus, he was called a messiah, he had a brother named James, he won over Jews and gentiles, Jewish leaders had unfavorable opinions of him, Pontius Pilate decided his execution, he was executed by crucifixion, and he was executed during Pilate’s governorship.[107] Josephus and Tacitus agree on four sequential points: a movement was started by Jesus, he was executed by Pontius Pilate, his movement continued after his death, and that a group of “Christians” still existed; analogous to common knowledge of founders and their followers like Plato and Platonists.[108]

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- Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
  
  The fact there’s even any historical references to him is a klaxon for his existence
  
  “He’s real because it was weird that someone made him up” 🙄
  
  I’m from an area of the world that has next to no written records for the entire peoples that lived here throughout several centuries of the early middle ages, and yet it’s not doubted they existed
  
  Yeah, those WILL leave traces beyond the written records. Where’s your archaeological proof of the significant carpenter?
  
  It seems then pretty difficult to doubt the existence of a single man with which there’s so much written from an even earlier period.
  
  Yeah, someone being written about a lot even though they’re not rich DOES prove that they’re real! Case in point:
  
  Image
  
  If Jesus existed in modern times I’m sure there’d be conspiracies that the CIA is trying to wipe out the memory of the slave abolitionist and communist revolutionary
  
  Nah, if he lived in modern day, he’d probably be murdered by the IOF, being a Palestinian from the West Bank.
  
  But because a cult ~~of personality~~ and religion got built around ~~him~~ a bunch of different people that they turned into one like Arwen in the LotR movies
  
  Fixed it for you.
  
  now one of the dominant philosophical and political powers in the world
  
  Bolded the operative words.
  
  The myth have been kept alive not by being true, but by being a tool of domination for those who have and want to maintain power.
  
  Or to quote Eleanor Ferguson, # “Christianity didn’t become a world religion because of quality of its teachings, but by the quantity of its violence”
  
  Similarly, the Liberal Zionism-esque “compromise” of Jesus being real but not divine was established not from the preponderance of evidence or even reason, but from being overly trusting of biased authority figures.
  
  Non-Christian sources used to study and establish the historicity of Jesus include the c. first century Jewish historian Josephus
  
  A braggart known to exaggerate and embellish accounts to make himself and the Jewish people look good.
  
  And he wasn’t born until the supposed Jesus had already died, making all the things he “reported” about it as an adult historian decades old hearsay at best.
  
  As for Tacitus, that was one passage in 116 CE, a modern day lifespan after the events described where he gets names and titles wrong and doesn’t reference a source.
  
  Hardly the irrefutable evidence you like to pretend it is.
  
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