Comment on .ml has got to be the only place on earth where I'd get downvoted for a comment like this

silentjohn@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

• aaa999@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  .ml

  source

  • silentjohn@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    ad hominem.

    source
• binux@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  This is framing the term “tankie” disingenuously if not intentionally. According to the Wikipedia article:

  Tankie is a pejorative label generally applied to authoritarian communists, especially those who support or defend acts of repression by such regimes, their allies, or deny the occurrence of the events thereof.

  It’s only ‘ignorant and combative’ in the same way that people call right-wing authoritarianism fascism, which is perfectly reasonable if not sympathetically misguided. Not to mention socialism isn’t apart of the description at all as you’ve described it.

  I also find it funny that your source for the meaning of tankie is from lemmy.ml, as if that isn’t the exact instance this post is criticizing. It would be like if I corrected someone on the meaning of the term “Jew” by sourcing Mein Kampf.

  source

  • silentjohn@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    especially those who support or defend acts of repression by such regimes, their allies, or deny the occurrence of the events thereof.

    Who defines “acts of repression”? Capitalists? Western Imperialists who commit acts of repression daily? It’s not a good faith argument. Many of the “acts of repression” usually listed [by western media, western/capitalist countries] can almost always be debunked or explained with nuance. For example the comment by the other user that “Xi is literal dictator” … I can’t even take this comment seriously.

    It’s only ‘ignorant and combative’ in the same way that people call right-wing authoritarianism fascism

    It’s ignorant and combative because it hand waves away all successful socialist states (China, Cuba, etc) without any nuance.

    Not to mention socialism isn’t apart of the meaning at all as you’ve described it.

    Socialism and Communism are one in the in the same according to Marx. As we use the terms today, from actual Socialists, is that Socialism is a beginning, transitory state before full Communism. This is the general agreed upon consensus at a high level. Among non-Socialists or Liberals, Socialism is usually interpreted as a “safer, more desirable, version of Communism”, whatever that means. As such, using the the term “tankie” insults Socialists and Communists alike, as we’re all working towards the same goal.

    I also find it funny that your source for the meaning of tankie is from lemmy.ml

    Where was I supposed to find a succinct rebuttal to this other than the people against whom the term is used? Wikipedia? Fox News? Where? Talk about bias…

    It would be like if I corrected someone on the meaning of the term “Jew” by sourcing Mein Kampf.

    False equivalence and you know it.

    source

    • binux@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I can already tell this isn’t a good faith response based on the first paragraph lol, you clearly didn’t read the article nor do you know the history of the term Tankie. Again, Wikipedia:

      The term “tankie” was originally used by dissident Marxist–Leninists to describe members of the Communist Party of Great Britain (CPGB) who followed the party line of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU).

      As you can see (if you care to be sincere here) it’s a pejorative term created by leftists to describe other leftists. Neither are acts of oppression defined by any of the groups you listed in this context. Be serious, please.

      It’s ignorant and combative because it hand waves away all successful socialist states (China, Cuba, etc) without any nuance.

      Inherently biased counter-point. You can’t just pose a government as having a successful ideology, at that point we might as well say there exists such a thing as utopia. It’s entirely rhetorical and has nothing solid to stand on.

      Socialism and Communism are one in the in the same according to Marx. As we use the terms today, from actual Socialists, is that Socialism is a beginning, transitory state before full Communism.

      Sure, but hopefully we can agree that contemporary socialists as a whole certainly do not agree on that definition. The ideology is far too diversified at this point for that to be the case. You can’t say “they aren’t socialists then” because again, that’s entirely rhetorical. In that case Protestants aren’t Christians, and Shia Muslims aren’t Islamic. Sure that’s religion, and you can say that’s different, but at the end of the day both religion and politics encompass ideological systems. They cover different niches, but what they fundamentally are stays the same.

      This is the general agreed upon consensus at a high level.

      This part really gets me. What are we defining as high level? Lemmy.ml mods? Even experts on the matter wouldn’t unanimously agree, they’re not a hivemind.

      the term “tankie” insults Socialists and Communists alike, as we’re all working towards the same goal.

      See my third point. Generalizations out the wazoo in this statement.

      Where was I supposed to find a succinct rebuttal to this other than the people against whom the term is used? Wikipedia? Fox News?

      Oh, I dunno… Academic sources would be a good place to start. I wouldn’t say a lemmy community is very close to that.

      False equivalence and you know it.

      Fair, though I edited it right after from Jew to National Socialism as I realized the error right away. You can’t say that’s a false equivalence, so ha!

      source

      • silentjohn@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        I ain’t reading all that. Free Palestine.

        source

        • -> View More Comments
  • leftascenter@jlai.lu ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Not to mention socialism isn’t apart of the meaning at all as you’ve described it.

    Have you tried clicking on the “authoritarian communists” link for a definition?

    source

    • binux@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Notice I wrote ‘as you’ve described it’. I shouldn’t have to explain that the criticism the term tankie is calling attention to in theory is authoritarianism, not communism or socialism as a whole (as the term was literally created by communists). Unless you’re arguing that authoritarianism is a good thing. I guess I wouldn’t be all that surprised.

      source

      • Cowbee@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        It isn’t so much that “authoritarianism is a good thing,” and more that it isn’t a useful term. All states are a tool by which one class exerts its authority, all states are therefore “authoritarian,” including socialist states. Therefore, “authoritarian communists” just means “communists” in practice.

        source

        • -> View More Comments
• hitwright@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Tankie here is mostly used against people who are extremely anti US, to the point that they choose to ignore or excuse all the crimes against humanity caused by other Imperialistic nations. Ex. Russia, China

  Mostly to quickly point out, that the person is a campist and will ignore other side arguments

  You’re arguing, about false use of a term, but the term has another meaning. You shouldn’t ignore it

  inb4 but muh dictionary…

  source

  • silentjohn@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    people who are extremely anti US

    The US has committed way more atrocities than either of those countries you listed. We literally just kidnapped a democratically elected leader without any due process a few months ago and everybody just plum forgot about it. We’ve started countless wars. We still have Guantanamo Bay operating. We orchestrated the genocide of millions via the Jakarta Method. We sanction and embargo countries with the EXPLICIT purpose (as admitted by the CIA) of inflicting as much human misery on the populace as possible. Our history with genocide of Natives, slavery, jim crowe, prison slavery … I’m sorry but the USA fucking sucks. I say that as a citizen who thinks we deserve better. The world deserves better. If that makes me a “tankie” … so be it. I will continue to fight for what’s right.

    to the point that they choose to ignore or excuse all the crimes against humanity caused by other Imperialistic nations. Ex. Russia, China

    Russia … ehh, I always argue that most Communists, because we are anti-imperialist, can see the reasons for Russia doing what Russia is doing, which is broadly reacting to NATO expansion. What I mean is, we can acknowledge how problematic Western Imperialism and NATO expansion close to Russia (or anywhere, really…) is. Nobody is really pro-Putin, very few. He’s a capitalist. We don’t like Capitalists.

    It’s like the Cuban Missile Crisis. It’s always framed as “big, bad, and evil USSR puts nukes in Cuba because they’re big, bad, and evil!”. Nevermind that the US put nukes in Italy and Turkiye first, and rejected any peace talks with USSR. We can see the nuance and understand why Russia is doing Russia things.

    As far as China … so many sinophobic arguments are easily debunked.

    term has another meaning. You shouldn’t ignore it

    I’ve been called a “tankie” far more than I’d like, I’m well aware of the meaning levied at me by ignorant people.

    source

    • hitwright@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Look, you’re doing it! That’s the whatabout campism it is refering to!

      I’m not here to argue which shitass empire is better (frankly all should collapse). Just introducing what a tankie means to regular people here to you to reduce tension you’re having over different definitions

      source

      • silentjohn@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Look, you’re doing it!

        Addressing your points from a perspective of an ML?

        That’s the whatabout campism it is refering to!

        Interesting. You never mentioned “whataboutism” in your “tankie” description, and you were allowed to insert whatever convenient definition you saw fit. I can see the goalposts are moving now that I’ve addressed your original points directly. Convenient that we’re never allowed to explain our position, lest the term “tankie” be thrown at us and summarily hand wave away anything we say.

        Just introducing what a tankie means to regular people

        Again, since I’m usually the one the term is being used against, I think I know what most “regular” people think the term means: which is usually just broadly anti-ML and anti-any-established-socialist-state because they’re [ignorantly and incorrectly] viewed as “Authoritarian”.

        I think we’ve exhausted this debate here.

        source
      • Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

        You don’t know what words mean

        source

        • -> View More Comments
• T00l_shed@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Tankie is used as pejorative to red maga

  source

  • Cowbee@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    MAGA Communists are Strasserites despised by those called “tankies.”

    source
  • silentjohn@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    That is not at all how it’s used.

    source

    • T00l_shed@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Yes, it is

      source

      • SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        No u

        source

        • -> View More Comments