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dreamy@quokk.au 2 days agoThe reality reversal is fucking crazy. RationalWiki is the right-wing misinformation wiki now?
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Note how none of the arguments presented by the Grayzone against Zenz are tackled, just how the Grayzone reports.
A lot of their arguments are debunked here instead.
Yes, Zenz isn’t the only one researching this! People like the Arab League went to Xinjiang and found no evidence of genocide. Instead, the groups that push the genocide narrative all circle back to Zenz, then reference each other. In this way, the narrative of genocide appears to have more legitimacy, despite all linking back to shoddy claims by an admitted professional propagandist.
Have any sources for that?
I find it telling that you’ll only listen to a christofascist, not the UN, and not the PRC’s official response and evidence. It’s the christofascists that deflect from Palestinian genocide that you trust completely, not hard evidence nor even the most official allegations by the UN. Truth doesn’t seem to matter to you, what matters is that christofascist propagandists are trusted. This is Iraq’s supposed WMD and South Africa’s supposed “White Genocide” all over again.
I literally said, if you want to argue with the information that is present in those in total 180 page documents feel free to do so. But I find it telling that you’ll ignore the stuff I say in order to defend daddy Xi at all costs instead. You’re actually a fucking joke.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 days ago
Correct, RationalWiki is run by right-wing liberals. Read the article linked, the sources are cited on the article and you can check them yourself. For example, Zenz claimed to have interviewed 8 Uyghur people and deduced that millions must be incarcerated:
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The source for this is just reading what Zenz and co posted themselves. The Grayzone is just highlighting clear problems with how Zenz gathers data.
As for sources on the Arab League visiting Xinjiang and finding no evidence of genocide, here’s Middle East Monitor reporting on it. I already linked this to you before, but this is an additional source just for fun. It’s really easy to find this online. As for pretty much all major allegations of genocide leading back to Zenz, here’s an example from BBC, which merely reports what Zenz says with little commentary.
Wierd bit of homophobia on your part at the end, but I can’t say I’m surprised by that behavior from you. You haven’t even looked at the reports, so there’s nothing here to argue yet, all we have found is that you believe far-right christofascist propagandist Adrian Zenz is infallible, and right-liberal RationalWiki is a reliable way to avoid engaging with a group that simply highlights Zenz’ background, methodology, and mistakes.
dreamy@quokk.au 2 days ago
And how did they deduce that? Maybe with the additional help of official Chinese government documents?:
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And I’m highlighting how they’re wrong.
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“This one article about Uighurs links back to Zenz so all articles link back to Zenz” do you even hear yourself?
Sorry, where was I homophobic?
Where did I defend the far-right you fucking moron? Are you fantasizing arguing with an alter ego of mine?
This is the third time I’m saying this. You’ve not made a single point about anything in the reports YOU shared. What the fuck would me reading them change. Make an argument, cite it, then I’ll check. I’m not going to read 180 pages to debunk literally no argument.
Where did I say that dipshit? Show me, where did I say that?
Lmao. Lol even. “Everything I don’t like is liberal” to the nth degree. Well, they’re not though:
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I’m directly engaging with the shit you keep spewing. I don’t want to type out paragraphs against worn-out arguments myself, that’s why I just send already existing rebuttals. You don’t want to engage with the rebuttals I send though, so you just keep moving the goalposts. Great job!
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 days ago
You’re showing how Zenz’ estimations are baseless, and RationalWiki is wrong. Zenz invented numbers pulled from thin air from a tiny sample size. You aren’t highlighting how the Grayzone is wrong, you’re proving RationalWiki’s problem with statistics and estimation, and highlighting your own willingness to overlook critical flaws in data analysis just to serve your own right-wing political ends.
Secondly, the top result article for “Uyghur genocide” circles back to reports by Zenz for allegations of genocide, and people referencing Zenz. I can go on and on, the most credible report is the UN report that you refuse to look at, and China’s response to it thoroughly debunks or contextualizes everything brought up. The reason you should read the reports is so that you can understand what the actual allegations are, rather than listening to a far-right christofascist propagandist paid by the US government to discredit China and other left wing groups.
As for rationalwiki being liberal, they absolutley are. For example, they call Friedrich Engels the “dictator of writing” on their “notable communists” subsection of the communism page:
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They also call every socialist leader a “dictator,” and include Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge an example of “communism.” These people are not serious, they are liberals that maintain the US government’s line on its enemies to a T. This goes well with your support of a literal CIA propagandist, Adrian Zenz.
I’ve moved no goalposts. You keep defending and dodging Zenz’ clear biases and proven track record of lying, manipulating data, and belief that China is the anti-christ. For example, Zenz showed a picture of elderly people recieving medical care at a clinic, and used it to boost his “forced sterilization” theory.
This is what Zenz writes:
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Why on Earth do you complain about creationists as though they have nothing worthy to say, while simultaneously using a crank propagandist that believes homosexuality is a sin, and that the rapture is coming within decades?
He also downplays actual islamophobia:
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RationalWiki tries to claim it is a fallacy to look at Zenz’ views and methodology, as “even the far-right can be correct.” However, this itself is a fallacy meant to stop the reader from seriously considering the validity of the information presented. If known liars and cranks that manipulate data are to be treated the same as scientific analysis, including when groups like the Arab League find no evidence of genocide, then you should certainly trust anti-imperialist reporting like from the Grayzone when it presents information clearly debunking RationalWiki and Adrian Zenz.
dreamy@quokk.au 2 days ago
How?
Do you not know how to read? I literally gave an answer for this at the very start of my previous response.
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I am though. Is “nuh uh” the best you’ve got?
How? Expand on these baseless statements maybe? It’s also really funny how you’ve essentially turned this into a RationalWiki vs Grayzone argument.
I thought I was a post-left anarchist. But if you say so I guess.
Hmm I wonder why. Maybe because he is a researcher in this topic?
You must be trolling at this point. Do you want me to repeat myself for the 4th time?
Yes, the left wing group of… China……
No, it doesn’t.
Have you ever heard of jokes?
It’s a wiki, go and discuss changing it if you have evidence against these claims.
Damn. This RationalWiki conspiracy goes deep huh? Why are you so mad at this singular source I cited?
Damn.
Except for the ones you did. Instead of engaging with my rebuttal against the claim that Zenz lied about IUD rates, you immediately switched to how Arab League countries found no wrongdoing. Then when I gave a rebuttal to that you immediately switched to how “Zenz claimed to have interviewed 8 Uyghur people and deduced that millions must be incarcerated”. And then when I gave my rebuttal to that you very obviously didn’t read it and switched to how I’m homophobic and far right, how RationalWiki is liberal, and how Zenz is a douchebag.
Are you okay? Hallucinating? I never defended or dodged those things. I gave rebuttals. I acknowledged that he’s biased, but also acknowledged that that singular reason doesn’t make his research untrustworthy. I debunked your claims about him lying and manipulating. And I really couldn’t give two shits about how evangelical he is. It is also weird how you’re so focused on this one researcher.
Did he now? Where’s the source?
Okay.
I never complained about creationists, nor did I ever say they have nothing worthy to say. I just referenced how creationists tend to omit parts of texts that hurt their feelings.
Okay. Like you continuing to poison the well doesn’t prove his research or data wrong.
No they don’t. RationalWiki addressed criticisms made against Zenz’s methodology, and accurately identified how using what kind of person Zenz is against his research is an ad hominem. And not ad hominem in the insult sense.
Oh yes, the Fallacy of Stopping the Reader from Seriously Considering the Validity of the Information Presented. Look, they even have a page for it 🤡.
They indeed point out how his beliefs call for significant scrutiny to his research:
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And it’s really weird how you’re still so focused on this singular source I cited.
You still haven’t proven any of this. But keep repeating. Maybe it’ll become reality.
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Yeah, the anti-imperialist reporting from… the pro-kremlin, antivax, anti-renewable Grayzone.
At this point I’m fully convinced that you’re a troll. If anybody isn’t, I feel sorry for them. Disengage.