I agree with most of this, save for
conventionally physically attractive women physically attractive, that this is not a fetish
it definitely is a fetish, just one of the most socially accepted ones.
Comment on Anon notices some fan service
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 days agowe’re not talking about the character in a vacuum, we’re talking about kojimas extreme defense of
Deflection / Framing Control
That’s what you’re talking about.
You’re dissatisfied with the canon explanation for Quiet’s exposure, you think Hideo made too big of a deal about it, that Hideo should have just said ‘yep I’m doing fan-service’.
Ricky is just stating that he finds conventionally physically attractive women physically attractive, that this is not a fetish, that wearing clothes that broadly fit the climate and Quiet’s combat role is not exhibitionism.
You keep talking past him, and the original commenter, never acknowledging that you keep throwing out tangential exaggerations, based around Kojima, that don’t apply to the people you’re talking to, the things they are saying.
You’re talking, but you’re not listening.
Calfpupa@lemmy.ml 1 day ago
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 day ago
… I see where you are going with this, but as with ‘exhibitionism’, … that really strains the definition of fetish.
Thats… basically just preference, in terms of sexual/aesthetic attraction.
A fetish is an obsession with … essentially, a particular body part, a particular kind of activity (which may or may not be typically regarded as related to sex or attraction), a particular kind of clothing, a particular kind of body form/feature.
Regardless of where and how exactly you draw the line there as to what does and does not count as a fetish… a core of the concept is that it is fairly uncommon, and particular.
A guy, being broadly attracted to women who are generally considered attractive, just, in that broad of concept… yeah, its heternormative as hell, but its basically the opposite of a fetish.
What is and what is not ‘a fetish’ is basically the opposite of what is extremely socially accepted.
While I totally think that the actual attempt to draw the lines of what is and is not a fetish… reveals the concept itself to be kind of fundamentally nonsensical… the general idea is that it is unusual, and that is the core of what the vast majority of common usage of the word revolves around.
WraithGear@lemmy.world 1 day ago
her whole deal about being near naked and ONLY HER is that she breaths through her skin. it’s nonsensical, it is unnecessary for the the multiple plot arcs, she also can’t talk out she will die/kill others. because he likes his women silent. there is a plot point covering it, but again the other soldiers didn’t have to take vow of silence, they just became sterile and were cured, but not her.
but jesus christ, Quiet is lewis and bounds better then what he did with Paz, like what the absolute fuck?!
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 day ago
I know why she has to have exposed skin, but… it still doesn’t constitute exhibitionism.
As far as the in universe explanation goes…
I mean, does it biologically make sense?
No, not really, but also, its sci-fi.
Does it thematically make sense?
Entirely yes.
All of MGSV rotates around questions of identity, connection/relation to yourself, and others.
Yep, she basically appears to be handcrafted as a beautiful woman who has a ludicrous reason she has to be scantily clad, and she can’t talk back, for roughly equally contrived reasons.
… Can you see past that?
Can you see the person inside, beyond the distracting skin, deeper than that?
Do you grow to respect her and her choices, as a person?
As the game progresses, and she’s in more ludicrous scenes… do you actually find youself feeling disgust as a voyeur… because she shouldn’t be treated that way?
If you just get stuck on the ‘Kojima is just a horndog’ angle, I’d argue you missed the point he was trying to make.
Basically, he keeps trying to get you to objectify her so hard, view her as nothing other than over the top fan service.
But there’s a person in there, a kind of strange, awkward person, but one with a ferocious sense of duty and responsibility, who is extremely capable.
She ‘speaks’ through actions.
Do you see her, or only her outward, superficial appearance?
Its… fairly notable that Kojima’s whole way of doing many ‘cutscenes’ is that they’re often in first person, or can be, and where you are looking, what you are focusing on… can significantly alter the actual scene you experience. Characters react differently, say different things, depending on where you are looking, at what point in the ‘cutscene’.
You’re the often the one choosing or not choosing to oogle her.
You can just not.
As to Paz… yeah, RIP, life and war are full of horrible tragedies, they hurt more when you care about them, when you can empathize with them, when you trust them.
What, did we… think war and conspiracies of power… did not involve innocent young women being forced into impossible situations with basically 0 ‘good’ possible outcomes?
… Have you heard of maybe this whole Epstein files thing?
Tiny smidgen of the amount of horrific shit that’s been done to women in war, that’s happening somewhere right now.
lime@feddit.nu 2 days ago
wow, good analysis. genuinely, you managed to de-escalate any tension before it appeared.
the reason i’m talking about framing is that that’s what the thread is about. saying “i enjoy attractive ladies in games” in this thread is implicitly in the context provided by the OPs image; the implicit sentence here is “personally i had no problem with quiet in particular”. my original pushback was that context matters, and that the stated reason something is made needs to be taken into account. like, since kojimbo stated that there was a very good reason for her to act and dress like she does, the fact that the reason is bad makes the decision worse. that’s a hole he has written himself into, it’s a very weird inclusion, and the fact he keeps defending the decision just makes it weirder.
i also like sexy women in my games, but i’m not the kind of person to just slap nude mods onto tomb raider or resident evil. there is a time and a place.
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 days ago
Sure.
Keep explaining why you’re saying what you’re saying.
Yep, your understanding of the implicit context is such.
Other people can have different implicit understandings of context.
And you still aren’t listening, you’re rationalizing, explaining yourself.
I already explained what you are doing.
I understand.
lime@feddit.nu 2 days ago
okay, then explain the alternative interpretation of the context. explain to me what i should be picking up from these unqualified statements that i am not.
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 days ago
You described wearing basically a bikini, sheers, some tac rigs, boots, etc…
As exhibitionism.
Thats a signifcant exaggeration / misunderstsnding of exhibitionism.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhibitionism
Exhibitionism is basicslly flashing, intentionally showing off the bits that are in this image, not visible, specifically to an audience.
Exhibitionism is a nude bicycle parade.
Ehibitionism is flashing your nude body to a crowd of onlookers.
At least by the framework of the game world being a consistent universe unto itself, Quiet is not an exhibitionist: She is a sniper, who prefers to operate very far away from other people.
Sure, if you want to expand exhibitionism to include breaking the 4th wall, to ‘being viewed by the audience of gamers’, then… ok… but… can you see how that creates a standard where any character that is depicted nude, is then an exhibitionist by way of existing in a form of media?
So its pretty innacurate to describe either Quiet, or gamers seeing Quiet, as an exhibitionist, unless she is actually doing an exhibitionism.
Being eye candy is not the same thing as exhibitionism.
Telling someone they are either into viewing exhibitionists, or are themselves an exhibitionist… for seeing a scantily clad character… thats not correct, just factually, unless you want to bend the meaning of exhibitionism to the point that it basicslly breaks.