Comment on Australia tests new long-range missile capable of hitting targets 500km away
Gorgritch_umie_killa@aussie.zone 2 days agoI’ve never claimed the other side are full of lovely people, thats not point. There you go again with your equivalences. Let me explain, when one person murders a brother and that victim’s brother then goes and murders the original murderers brother, two crimes have been committed, and each murderer is answerable for their crimes. You ikplicitly advocate eye for an eye with your tacit support of Israels actions. Eye for an eye simply leads to ongoing feuds, as we see a lot of with Israel and their neighbours, time for a different approach.
You’re a massive fan of Israel obviously, but try looking at the experience from the other side. The crimes they’ve committed aren’t forgotten, theres a long history there, and it doesn’t do anyone well to ignore one side in favour of the other. The colonial take over of that land, the ongoing persecution of the people i’ve already mentioned isn’t absolved because they’ve had crimes committed against them. Its perplexing that i have to restate this.
My point about NZ is they’re the only country we can rely on to a high degree, not whatever you think i said about their miltary and technological capability. I’ve said this a couple different ways now.
I think the disconnect is your impressed and argue that we should cleave to powerful allies, whereas i’m impressed and argue that we should cleave to those willing to uphold some semblance of moral values. Until we both realise we aren’t valuing the same things here, we won’t be able to see the others point of view.
All you said about Israel’s economy was a bit wasted, i actually accounted for that and didn’t dismiss it. But to ignore the fact their close relationship and support from the United States, and European countries like Britain and France and their efforts in building up that place as an ‘unsinkable aircraft carrier’ misses the point of why their economy is so ‘blessed’. I find it incredible you would ignore that. There are few economies that can sustainably pull themselves up without massive support from benefactors, Israel isn’t incredible, its a natural outcome of continued unquestioning investment and support. My point is, thats been put at risk, and made harder since their behaviour since Oct 7th, and now they aren’t materially different from their neighbours in that regard.
Left wing progressives don’t tend to let go of things. They’ve been on this train for a long time. I generally find its good to listen to those people, they aren’t shunted off on a different tangent like the rest of society so easily is. Thats my experience with left wing progresssives, maybe we’ve had different interactions there.
Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 day ago
Yeah we clearly don’t see eye to eye at all
It’s the only nation in the middle east with values close to ours, if Israel isn’t incredible, then what are all the countries around Israel?
Lets look at Gaza since it’s the one you can probably relate to the most:
First they are given back their land and have a functioning democracy, the first thing they do is hold a vote and immediately elect Islamic State Terrorists who have a plan to wipe out Israel, great start :) All their neighbours puts up guard fences because who the fuck wants to have open borders with islamic militants, they then proceed (instead of aiming for a diplomatic solution) fire rockets, dig tunnels to invade and terrorise/kidnap/torture/kill Israeli’s, spread endless anti-israel propaganda, enslave their women who appear to be popping out 5-10 children on average, train those kids to become jihadi’s, and continue to hound their closest neighbours, THEN in one of the most dumbest acts of war I’ve ever seen, invade Israel when they are at their weakest due to a holiday so they can cause the most damage in classic islamic militant manners possible, seemingly forgetting that Israel is not some tribe in Syria they can pick on and massacre.
This is all after they were kicked out of Jordan:
AND restricted on other side of the wall with Egypt:
I have no idea how they ended up in the situation they’re in, must just be bad luck? 😀
Give me a break, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Nigeria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Lebanon, these are all muslim majority countries sitting right next to trillion dollar muslim petro-states, where’s their highly advanced progressive economies? I’d love to hear “gays leaving melbourne for highly progressive (and incredible :D ) Qatar”
Dubai built a giant dick in the sand, you should ask them why they didn’t invest in the thriving business environment of Islamic State Iraq and Syria.
I am to both, Israel is acting towards the Palestiniains very similar to how we would because we share similar moral values, they are the closest to us in the middle east.
As I tried to explain with the “moderate muslims” holding signs like “behead all those who insult the prophet”, we simply aren’t in the same circumstances as the Israeli’s, if that man was your neighbour, who actually went through with his sincere moderate muslim beliefs and beheaded your son/daughter/mother/father, you’d have a very different opinion and so would the people around you.
How about this for a point:
60/40 split and we’re not even in an active war with them!
en.wikipedia.org/…/2023_Australian_Indigenous_Voi…
Imagine if we were back at war like in the 1800’s? How close to 0% do you think we could get the Yes vote? j/k we wouldn’t even have a vote.
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Side note: Interesting how the people closest to living with the Indigenous are the most hostile, while inner cities which are full of rich white people are the most in favour? Funny 😀
In fact I’d argue there’s a good chance we’d be worse, Israel has nukes and one of the most powerful armies in the world, it could have completely wiped Palestine off the map, I know if the USA was sitting next to them it would not put up with this shit at all, if Palestinians pulled the same shit they did on Oct 7th to the USA there’d probably be a McDonalds right in the middle of Gaza and a big American flag right now.
So yeah, I think our circumstances are different but not our values, it’s very easy to go around and be all high and moral when you’re not the one living next to the scariest motherfuckers on the planet.
This is too long already, good chat but this’ll be my last post
Gorgritch_umie_killa@aussie.zone 1 day ago
All you and I have said in essence doesn’t matter.
Their problem is the crimes they are committing in Gaza now. They could be the most enlightened unicorns the world has seen, they are still committing the heinous crime of starvation and mass punishment, and about a third of their ‘enemy’ seem to be children, you don’t wipe your hands of this, and we don’t let them.
Israel doesn’t have values like our own, maybe at some point the two countries were more aligned in that respect. Our history is sordid, and we continue to have problems and always will. We are changing as a nation, slowly, but i live in a very different country, and better, than i grew up in.
We don’t have to choose a best mate in the middle east, thats okay, i never tried to say any were better. We’re a world away and can afford to keep all at arms length, thats a choice we can make.
So i think the equivalences you draw aren’t useful. Israel is a nation committing crimes against humanity, compare their actions against UN conventions, or the Rome Statute, etc…