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Comment on Brian Eno, creator of the Windows 95 startup sound, calls on Microsoft to sever ties with Israel

RickRussell_CA@beehaw.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

Honestly, I struggle to draw a connection between world conflict and non-military technology like Windows or cell phones or whatever.

Is every single Israeli resident complicit in what their government is doing? None of them should be allowed to use Windows? What about Israelis outside of Israel? What about people who support Israel? What about (gasp) Jews? How do you even enforce any of this without massive overreach by the companies?

Call on Microsoft or Apple all you want, ultimately I don’t think a company should ban sales to customers on the argument that those customers might not have morals aligned to the company. Not that it’s even possible, with world supply chains being what they are.

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crmsnbleyd@sopuli.xyz ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Umm Microsoft does sell military technology to Israel. So does Google. Idk why none of the previous commenters mentioned that. People are not asking for Microsoft to stop selling Windows in Israel.

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- crmsnbleyd@sopuli.xyz ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Also jumping from possible restrictions on Israeli citizens (like how Iranians and Russians are treated) to Jews is a wild leap that’s only used to paint criticism of Israel as having racist origin. Not saying you’re doing that, but it doesn’t really make sense to say this.
  
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Kissaki@beehaw.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

Microsoft continues to provide the Israeli military with Azure cloud and AI services that are crucial in empowering and accelerating Israel’s genocidal efforts targeting Palestinians.

via petition text

www.972mag.com/cloud-israeli-army-gaza-amazon-goo…

‘Order from Amazon’: How tech giants are storing mass data for Israel’s war

The Israeli army is using Amazon’s cloud service to store surveillance information on Gaza’s population, while procuring further AI tools from Google and Microsoft for military purposes, an investigation reveals.

Is every single Israeli resident complicit in what their government is doing? None of them should be allowed to use Windows?

This is not about Israeli citizens using Windows. This is about Microsoft’s contracts with the Israeli military and government.

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laserjet@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

massive overreach by the companies?

The US is a world leader in the “corporations are people” shenanigans. The massive overreach is fait accompli.

Corporations get to do their “Speech” in all kinds of ways such as funding political initiatives, dictating the healthcare their workers receive, etc. In this context, your point falls very flat.

Also, it is general practice in many places that businesses (even those who are not “people”) can refuse to service customers for arbitrary reasons as long as they do not break some superseding law in the process. You can refuse entry to people with dogs, if you don’t like dogs. But usually not to people with service animals, because having a service animal may be a protected class. (On the basis of having a service animal. Of course, if someone comes with one pet dog and one service animal, you don’t have to let the pet in.)

I do not know of any jurisdiction that sets out doing genocide as a protected class.

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- RickRussell_CA@beehaw.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I just don’t see it doing any good. Why would Israel’s military, supplied with US military hardware, care about Microsoft? Or Apple or Google or Amazon or… I’m sure none of their critical military infrastructure is in danger if one or several of these companies turn on them.
  
  And how does Microsoft even enforce this ban? Turn off Windows remotely? It’s not even clear how such a ban on Israel-linked business would work.
  
  If world governments want to put sanctions on Israel and Gaza to try and make the two governments come to the table, I think that’s a much better strategy.
  
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  - laserjet@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    It is actually pretty easy to answer questions like this by searching the web. Below, I have done some work for you.
    
    First, though, gotta say that the most generous reading of your arguments is that you are philosophically defeatist and suffer from “the perfect is the enemy of the good”---- why do anything except the one final action that will solve it for good? If that is your attitude, why bother posting on a forum? Why bother doing anything?? To learn about the broader strategy, you could try Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions - Wikipedia. Nobody is arguing that MS should be targeted instead of promoting governments to sanction and remove the subsidies that keep it afloat. But Brian Eno thinks he has more sway with MS than with the US government, so that’s what he’s throwing his back into.
    
    ‘Microsoft Powers This Genocide’: Firm Fires Pro-Palestine Disruptors of 50th Anniversary Celebration | Common Dreams
    
    The protests come a few months after the publication of an investigation by The Associated Press which found that Israel’s use of Microsoft and OpenAI technology “skyrocketed” following Hamas’ October 7, 2023 attack on Israel, which prompted Israel’s deadly campaign on the Gaza Strip. Multiple human rights groups have said Israel is guilty of committing genocide or “acts of genocide.”
    
    Specifically, the investigation found that artificial intelligence “models from Microsoft and OpenAI had been used as part of an Israeli military program to select bombing targets during the recent wars in Gaza and Lebanon.”
    
    Ex-Microsoft employees expose company’s role in Gaza genocide, quoting Hossam Nasr:
    
    there needs to be a focus on Microsoft’s actual business practices as they affect Palestinians in Palestine and as they directly contribute to the genocide and the horrible scenes that we were seeing coming out of Gaza.
    
    And two, the need for a strategy to put pressure on executives rather than trying to appeal to the humanity and moral character of these executives.
    
    We started researching Microsoft’s complicity in the genocide, trying to find out exactly the target and strategy for this campaign.
    
    We then formally launched No Azure for Apartheid in May 2024, with four main demands: IOF (Israeli Occupation Forces) off Azure, ending all sales of any Azure cloud and AI services to the Israeli military and government.
    
    Two, disclose all the ties between Microsoft and the Israeli military-industrial complex, the Israeli government and the Israeli military.
    
    Three, calling for a permanent and immediate ceasefire to honour an earlier petition signed by over 1,000 employees.
    
    And lastly, to protect employees and uphold free speech by ending the discrimination and the double standards against Arab, Muslim, Palestinian and allied employees.
    
    Microsoft must be held accountable for its complicity in Gaza genocide, rights group says – Middle East Monitor
    
    According to human rights and media reports, since the beginning of the ongoing war on Gaza in October 2023, Microsoft has provided direct technical support to the Israeli occupation army worth at least $10 million through its Azure cloud platform.
    
    Reports revealed that Microsoft’s support included data management services, the development of targeting systems, advancements in surveillance technologies and the provision of cutting-edge AI tools. These include ‘Lavender’, an AI-powered system designed to identify bombing targets, which has faced accusations of being linked to the deaths of thousands of civilians in Gaza.
    
    Furthermore, the reports accuse Microsoft of supplying biometric surveillance technologies to track Palestinians. This comes as the death toll has surpassed 50,800 people, including more than 18,000 children, according to Gaza’s Ministry of Health.
    
    In a statement, Skyline asserted that Microsoft’s continued support of Israel violates the UN Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights. The organisation urged the company to transparently disclose the nature of its relationship with the Israeli occupation and to terminate all forms of cooperation linked to military activities that breach international law and human rights.
    
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    RickRussell_CA@beehaw.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    
    the most generous reading of your arguments is that you are philosophically defeatist
    
    That’s probably a fair assessment.
    
    But I feel like the core of my argument remains: I’m not disputing that MS or Google or Amazon or Apple services are being are sold to people and orgs who use them to commit evil. Of course they are.
    
    But these aren’t munitions. They are general-purpose computing products being turned to evil outcomes by bad actors. The article, for example, cites Microsoft’s open-source LAVENDER, which is a general purpose image and video analysis tool for AI. Describing it as:
    
    ‘Lavender’, an AI-powered system designed to identify bombing targets
    
    This simply isn’t true. Somebody in the Israeli military used LAVENDER to process video data to identify bombing targets, like somebody might use a hammer to smash someone’s head in. The articles you cite are full of rhetorical tricks to imply that Microsoft corporate had some hand in the decision making, which it’s genuinely all just “well the Israeli military has some Azure servers, therefore Microsoft killed people”.
    
    Which militaries should Microsoft (or Google or Apple or Amazon, etc) be allowed to sell products to? Who makes that determination? A cohort of employees or consumers? NGOs?
    
    If government makes the call – distilling a public consensus on the matter, one hopes – then I can see some reasonable way to approach this question.
    
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