Comment on What kind of upbringing makes an incel?
nicetomeetyouIMVEGAN@lemmings.world 8 months agoI think that all patriarchal models, not just male models, are disappearing and that we’re witnessing the loss of privilege. It’s not as if feminism is creating a model to be a woman, it’s the opposite it’s the destruction of the gender model.
So, I really do not believe in the idea that men need a new model. We can just tap into our humanity and be who we are, authentically. In essence abolishing gender all together. It shouldn’t be a social factor expecting/demanding you to behave a certain way.
It’s difficult to figure out the difference between being authentic and being ideologically programmed, especially when they overlap. It’s far easier to claim that true authenticity is inherent in patriarchal ideology. And that’s why incels claim the ‘old’ model is actually good.
It’s also why it’s mostly a problem for impressionable young men who lack introspection, or at least the life experience needed for it to be useful. While the removal of patriarchal ideology they are subject to haven’t really changed, male culture and tradition stand in the way of that. So on the one hand they are fully aware of what is expected for them in the male role but on the other hand society and especially women are moving away from this expectation. Depending on social factors you deal with this discrepancy differently.
If there is something lacking it is that there are very few men who stand there with open arms to catch these young men on the feminist side. We need more men that embrace feminism and guide young men with acceptance and love. And I have a theory for why but this is getting long. (feminism lifted on the back of individualism)
We can be a person without the baggage of a gender role.
bouh@lemmy.world 8 months ago
The privileges are irrelevant to the problem. The problem is about how to date and seduce.
These interactions are extremely codified. The interesting part is that they are completely tied to culture, but almost all cultures show heavy patriarchal bias.
Depending in the culture it’s tought in different ways. In our western culture, we have the example of our peers, movies and magazines.
It’s not a matter of role but a matter of how to behave. And it’s not about being nice and respectful. These are obvious to anyone who’s not an asshole. But you are not attractive by being nice and respectful, and you’re delusional if you think it’s the case.
Incels topically missed the classes about how to do the dating and seducing. They weren’t necessarily assholes before the trauma and conditioning. But when you are bad this game and you look for advices, the only answers you will find are conservative and machist. And that’s the positive answers you will find.
Because too many reactions will be disdainful or shaming. This thread is an example of it. And from the people who pretend they are trying to fix the problems between men and women, it’s a shame IMO.
nicetomeetyouIMVEGAN@lemmings.world 8 months ago
Privilege is the key stone foundational to understanding what incels are trying to get. If you’re brushing it aside nothing but a superficial understanding about dating remains and becomes useless in formulating any sort of solution to the problem.
Yeah superficially incels are about dating and seducing. But this doesn’t explain anything. In fact it is what incels themselves claim the solution is, in getting better at seduction and dating. So basically your solution would be exactly the same as the incel solution. Should make you think.
bouh@lemmy.world 8 months ago
This is not a matter of privileges. The machist stance is a fall back. The privileges are a cherry on the cake.
Is it too hard to understand that many people only someone to live with? And that the frustration of not getting it can completely destroy a personality? Then they’re suggested a easy solution.
It is a radicalisation process. Arabs are given terrorism. Single young white boys are given machism.
Idiots solutions to these is to fight them. Progressive and smart solutions are to understand why they are destroyed in the first place and prevent it. Abandoned middle classes are given fascism.
Living happy in solitude is not a solution.
On a side note I’m pretty sure you can link a part of the suicides to this problem. Obviously dead young boys don’t become incels though.
nicetomeetyouIMVEGAN@lemmings.world 8 months ago
This is what I mean. You’re just saying that what incels experience is a lack of love/companionship. Exactly the same thing that incels demand from women. You’re both just looking at the same solution, of how to give these boys company. That they are caught between a rock and a hard place.
But that’s exactly what the man-o-sphere is telling these people. Your analysis is no different than what Andrew tate, Jordan peterson, etc. would say. That feminism has caused a shift in society that leads to a lack of family values, commitment, common sense, etc. That the freedom women have are detrimental, because they now have the freedom to deny you that love and companionship.
What are you going to say now? Because not a word is an explicit lie here. Feminism has caused more divorce, more freedom for women, greater self worth for women, sexual freedom, higher demands on men. It’s just true. So the type of superficially gesturing at boys lacking companionship is only just helping incels into the pipeline. It means nothing, it’s not an analysis. You’re completely missing the point.