Comment on What can US citizens do to fight/prevent their country enabling genocide?
delusion@lemmy.myserv.one 5 days agoI see that this is the common point of view for people who sympathise with Israel. I strongly disagree with you but appreciate you wanting to discuss it.
It seems you belive you have to be convinced of to things in order to change your view: A. Genocidal acts are being commited. B. The genocidal acts are being commited with genocidal intent.
A: That genocidal acts are being committed is a fact. Carefully read through the wikipedia article above (en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide) if you’re not convinced. Do it. Read the article.
B: You seem to focus on this. i.e that the actions taken by IDF are only powered by a will to protect the security of Israel, and that there is no intent of genocide. I don’t necessarily agree, but let’s say you’re right: Israel only does what it does out of security concerns. This does not warrant the genocidal actions commited. You can’t, out of security concerns, kill 10,000 children. This should be obvious.
Please reconsider your views.
FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 5 days ago
“Genocidal acts” doesn’t mean that a genocide is happening. “Destruction of civilian infrastructure” is an “act of genocide”. That happens in almost every conflict in the world, and not every one is a genocide.
A genocide is a specific thing. For me to be convinced that there is a genocide happening, specific things need to happen and with a specific intent - and those things aren’t happening in Gaza. Hamas want a genocide. They’re very open about this. Israel are trying to eliminate Hamas. If Hamas surrendered, the killing would stop.
Unfortunately in war there are casualties. Casualties will be increased when one of the parties at war - Hamas - use civilians, including kids, as “meat shields”, like putting their military bases in schools and hospitals as Hamas has been factually proven to do. Hamas have been caught faking civilian deaths and casualty numbers too, and they’re an internationally recognised terrorist organisation - they are not to be trusted, no matter what you think of Israel. Again - Hamas openly call for the genocide of Jews and Israelis. Very openly.
A question for you - if you were to agree that Israel are doing what they are doing in retaliation to what Hamas did on October 7, and will not stop until Hamas are defeated, would you still consider that a genocide? If Hamas surrendered and Israel stopped killing Palestinians, would you still say it was a genocide?
Another question - are you open to reconsidering your views? Or are you steadfast in them but expect me to consider changing mine?
delusion@lemmy.myserv.one 5 days ago
I am probably just as steadfast as you, but I try to understand the views of the opposite side. You seem to do that too, given that you’re discussing with me. That is appreciated.
To answer your question: Yes it is still obviously genocide even if it is in retaliation. There are many legitimate ways of retaliating against a militant group - starving an entire population is not one of them. Israel could be conducting this war in a very different way.
Then why don’t they conduct the war in a very different way? Because they want to get rid of Gaza’s population, I say. See this, for example (although just reports for now): timesofisrael.com/us-reportedly-developing-plan-t… which also points towards the US complicity in the genocide. 1 million Gazans aren’t Hamas fighters. 1 million Gazans are just arabs/muslims, and that’s apparantly enough reason to force them from their homeland?
delusion@lemmy.myserv.one 5 days ago
Also, if a large amount of “genocidal acts” doesn’t amount to genocide, then what does? Is Israel allowed to commit the most horrendous crimes as long as it is in “good faith”?
FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 5 days ago
Intent matters, as does the overall goal.
Israel are trying to eliminate Hamas, the internationally recognized terrorist organisation. That’s it. They’re not trying to wipe out the Palestinian population.
delusion@lemmy.myserv.one 5 days ago
You seem to repeat the same argument over and over. I believe you know you’re wrong. Israel can try to achieve this goal without making an entire area hell on earth for 2 million people. You know this. Amnesty international knows this. The UN knows this. The ICJ knows this.
Also, I want to point out a fundamental difference in iur arguments.
You say:
Hamas wants to commit Genocide against the jewish people. This gives Israel the right to do whatever it takes to “take out Hamas” (whatever that means?), with however much collateral damage they want.
I say: Israel is commiting genocide against the Palestinian People. Nothing more. I do not, at all, see this as a reason for Hamas to wipe out the entirety of IDF killing however many innocent Israelis it takes. Do you understand? The many crimes of the IDF (which are facts, look up Israeli war crimes if you do not believe me) does not warrant the killing and starvation of Israeli children in the thousands.
Nor does the crimes of Hamas warrant the killing and starvation of Arab children in the thousands. Obviously.