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Comment on What’s a movie nobody can convince you is good?

Yeah, I’ve heard that before, about how Llewelyn isn’t the main character. Not trying to be rude to you, but that sounds like bullshit. He’s the character I’m rooting for. If the main character isn’t the character I’m rooting for, then that doesn’t sound like an enjoyable movie.

If you’re saying Chigurh is the main character: he doesn’t grow either.

If you’re saying Tommy Lee Jones is the main character (which I’ve heard before), then I’m going to strain my eyes from rolling them so hard. He doesn’t at any point interact with the plot. That’s not good writing.

I get the Coens are doing it differently. They’re not following the rules for how stories should be told. But different isn’t the same as good, and the way they told the story was needlessly confusing and pretentious.

I always find it useful to use food as a metaphor to describe how I feel about movies. If No Country For Old Men were a meal, it would be expertly seasoned and cooked, with one extra ingredient that doesn’t belong there and detracts from the whole thing, like if you made a perfect steak and drenched it in liquorice sauce.

And it would be served on a scrap of driftwood, or in a fishbowl, or in literally anything other than a plate. Everyone around me would be raving about the side dishes while I’m wondering why my meat tastes like shit.

You can include themes in a movie and still tell a coherent story. Try this: remove the theme. Is the movie any good? Is the plot entertaining, and does it make sense? No, it’d be really awful, and the inclusion of a theme doesn’t excuse that.

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DrSteveBrule@mander.xyz ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Do you not like any movies or shows where the main character is the bad guy? The Sopranos is my all time favorite show but I’ve never rooted for Tony. Breaking bad is great too but I still never rooted for Walter White.

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- moakley@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  You really never rooted for Walt? You didn’t hope that he’d make the right decision? You didn’t find a little guilty pleasure in the satisfaction of a bad deed done well?
  
  If not, then why did you even watch the show?
  
  I’m fine with rooting for a bad guy. But no, I don’t enjoy stories that only have irredeemable characters that I can’t root for.
  
  Besides, Javier Bardem won the Oscar for Best Supporting Actor, which doesn’t usually go to main characters.
  
  But ok, even if Llewelyn wasn’t the main character, he’s the central character of the plot. His death resolves the main storyline in the movie, and it happens off screen. That’s not good storytelling.
  
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  - DrSteveBrule@mander.xyz ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Personally no i never rooted for Walt. Don’t get me wrong I still enjoyed his character and the show overall but I figured him to be a pretty bad guy from the start. Sometimes I just enjoy a show even when all the main characters are bad people. It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia is another example from a completely different genre. Most episodes end with those characters in a bad predicament based solely off of their poor actions, but that’s what makes it interesting to watch for me. I would feel like a shitty person of i rooted for them because they are incredibly shitty people. Another example i can think of is Narcos. That show was wildly popular, but there’s no way anyone can justify rooting for Pablo Escobar.
    
    Anyway I guess that’s all beside the point of why you may not like No Country for Old Men. I haven’t seen that movie in a long time so I can’t recall many details. But I can still appreciate reading your thoughts on what makes for good storytelling. There’s really no right or wrong as far as I’m concerned, everyone has their preferences.
    
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TheDorkfromYork@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
It is obvious that the themes of the movie were lost on you, and that is ok. It takes time to understand a movie, then you might not get it completely. I had to watch the film 3 times before I got it. You are far to confident in your judgement. If you did understand the film, you wouldn’t be say the Sheriff was disconnected from the plot. Everything in the movie was done with intent, and you didn’t pick up on that, which, again is ok. Just please DO NOT say that it wasn’t without purpose. You just failed to get it, and that happens all the time, especially to me. I hate to think about all the times I complain about a book or movie only for friends and colleagues to point out the obvious details I missed.

Not trying to be rude to you, but that sounds like bullshit.

In film, you can tell who the driving character is by seeing which character believes a lie and how they are forced change because of it. The Sheriff is the only character with an arc.

He’s the character I’m rooting for

I believe that this movie’s theme attacks you personally, and is having the intended effect. Once he dies, that should tip you off to the movie was about something else, and give you more context to the events of the film.

He doesn’t at any point interact with the plot

The Sheriff is the only character who changes.

They’re not following the rules for how stories should be told.

They DO follow the standard story structure.

and the way they told the story was needlessly confusing and pretentious.

It was confusing, because they challenge your assumptions and established predictable cliche. They do follow a normal story structure, just not normal cliche.

You can include themes in a movie and still tell a coherent story. Try this: remove the theme. Is the movie any good? Is the plot entertaining, and does it make sense? No, it’d be really awful, and the inclusion of a theme doesn’t excuse that.

I don’t know what you’re trying to say here, but theme is the most important element.

In short, you should be more open minded. You didn’t get the movie, that’s ok. I don’t think most video essays on youtube or reviewers get it either. But frankly, it’s extremely well written, and it would be a measure of bad judgement if you dismissed it as senseless. I’ll be clear, you didn’t get it. The movie is amazing, and it will take thought to understand it, and not everyone is in a position in their life to get it. But some day, I hope you will, and the first step is to believe it is possible that you didn’t get it, and to have trust in other people.

So often I hate mainstream movies, but this isn’t it. This movie doesn’t waste a single shot.

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- moakley@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  If it follows a standard story structure, then what was the climax?
  
  I think I’m very open-minded about movies. For example in the mid-aughts I dragged my girlfriend to like five different Coen Brothers movies before I decided that I really just don’t like them. For another example, I even like mainstream movies.
  
  Isn’t it possible I do understand it, and I just don’t like it? I’ve put enough thought into it. I see the themes. I don’t think those things outweigh the poor plot structure.
  
  You can say No Country has a coherent plot, but it doesn’t in the sense I’m talking about.
  
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  - TheDorkfromYork@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Skimming through the movie, I would say about 1 hour 39 minutes into the movie is the climax. The Sheriff enters the hotel Llewelyn was murdered in, not knowing if Anton is there. In the previous scene the local cop told him that Anton showed up two nights in a row to the scene of the crime, and the Sheriff went in knowing this. Every choice comes with risk. He took his final chance and survived, but not in tact.
    
    When the movie starts, the Sheriff talks admirably of old cop stories, before saying; “I always knew you had to be willing to die to even do this job, but I don’t want to push my chips forward and go out and meet something I don’t understand. A man would have to put his soul at hazard. He would have to say, ok. I’ll be part of this world.”
    
    By the end, everyone told him times have changed, except Uncle Ellis who says it has always been this way. People die, the world is chaos. Everyone is one coin flip away from death, even Anton who suffers a car accident no fault of his own. People frequently mischaracterize Anton as the manifestation of death, but he’s not; he manifestation of chance. I picked up on this on a rewatched when he missed a shot on a still bird.
    
    The Sheriff tells of the dream he had of his father going ahead, to prepare a fire for when he got there, before then waking up. To me, he has awoken to the truth; there is no justice, no happy endings, every has their time, and it’s a fools work to worry about it, but he’s now a lost man.
    
    Rewatch the movie with this in mind, and I think you’ll enjoy it far more.
    
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    moakley@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    That’s the worst climax ever.
    
    It’s supposed to be the turning point of the story, where the conflict is resolved.
    
    You’re saying the actual story is this old man who’s barely in the movie realizing that life sucks. And this point in the story, where literally nothing happens on screen, is the resolution of the conflict of him not exactly realizing that life sucks.
    
    Ugh. That’s not complex or deep. It’s oblique and pretentious.
    
    The definition of a climax is “the most intense, exciting, or important point of something; a culmination or apex.”
    
    That scene is obviously not intense or exciting. It’s only the most important part of this hidden plotline that’s even more off-screen than Llewelyn’s death since it only takes place in the mind of a character who’s barely in the movie, who has no agency and no part of the actual events shown on screen.
    
    It’s insufferable. The things you’re saying (which I was already aware of, to be clear) make the movie worse, not better.
    
    Even if I was super into this extremely boring theme, it doesn’t preclude the rest of the movie from containing a well-told story. And even if I went into the movie convinced that the Coens are geniuses and ready to forgive every other thing, voiceover exposition talking about symbolism-laden dreams is always going to be lazy writing.
    
    I won’t watch it again. I’m not trying to reevaluate it. I didn’t miss anything. I just don’t think it’s any good.
    
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void_turtle@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

If the main character isn’t the character I’m rooting for, then that doesn’t sound like an enjoyable movie.

Main character as the bad guy is very common and many great stories are told this way. If you can’t find a way to enjoy any of them then idk what to tell you, watch fewer marvel movies I guess

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generichate1546@lemmynsfw.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
The Dude isn’t the main character in the Big Lebowski either

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