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Comment on dear republicans, what's the point of alienating every single ally of the US?

The reason you assumed I was trying to carry water for Russia is that you assume I think in the same nonsense terms that you do, viewing geopolitics through this inane lens of “good guys” and “bad guys” like it’s a Saturday morning cartoon. In reality, they’re all ruthlessly self-interested and neither Russia nor the US has any interest in improving the lives of ordinary people (as I already told you, when I said Russian billionaires don’t exploit me only because they lack the power to do so). The correct way to view such conflicts is through the lens of realpolitik.

To give a historical example, in the American Revolution, the revolutionaries were supported by the French monarchy. France’s absolute monarchy was less democratic than Britain’s, and obviously the French king did not support the revolution because he supported it’s ideals. The French only wanted the revolution to succeed in order to weaken Britain. The British colonists lobbied for and happily accepted the French support, realizing that, even if the French king was just as bad as the British king, the British government was the one exploiting them, while they had a common enemy with the French government.

In the same way, I have no illusions about Russian capitalists or the Russian government being in some way “morally superior” or “the good guys,” but I also recognize that the American billionaires and government are the ones exploiting me, and are therefore my most direct and primary enemy.

If you want to persuade me from that position, then you need to be able to make the case that supporting the American capitalists/government against the Russians is somehow in line with my material class interests. Preferably without relying on a single historical example from 80 years ago which has been cited over and over again to justify disasterous wars that made things worse for everyone.

And if you can’t make that case to me, then you won’t be able to make it to a broad audience. And if you can’t make it to a broad audience, eventually, you will be unable to get elected on a platform that includes support for it, and Ukraine will be abandoned. And if Ukraine is going to be abandoned anyway, then it’s better to avoid prolonging the war for no reason, because it just means more people will die.

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zenitsu@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

“good guys” and “bad guys” like it’s a Saturday morning cartoon. In reality, they’re all ruthlessly self-interested and neither Russia nor the US has any interest in improving the lives of ordinary people

Not sure why you think this hyper-cynical teenage view is any less of an inane and immature lens than “saturday morning cartoons”

The correct way to view such conflicts is through the lens of realpolitik.

That’s just your opinion.

ones exploiting me, and are therefore my most direct and primary enemy.

I never positioned the conversation as being about who is exploiting YOU more though. You keep inserting your own personal interests as if it should be the compass when comparing the US and Russia, idk why.

then you need to be able to make the case that supporting the American capitalists/government against the Russians is somehow in line with my material class interests

No time for tankie bs, sorry. If you can’t already see how the US gov is incomparably better to what Russia has to over the world then you’re too far gone.

you won’t be able to make it to a broad audience

I’m not a celebrity or a pundit, I’m not here to sell my case to a “broad audience”, I just talk to individuals.

And if Ukraine is going to be abandoned anyway

“We should abandon it because it’s going to be abandoned anyway” is circular logic nonsense. The point should be people realizing that it’s best, even just for their own self-interest, for Ukraine to win.

because it just means more people will die.

You have no idea if supporting or surrendering would result in more or less deaths. Don’t pretend to know.

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- Objection@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  
  Not sure why you think this hyper-cynical teenage view is any less of an inane and immature lens than “saturday morning cartoons”
  
  “People persue their own interests” is not a “hyper-cynical teenage view” lmao.
  
  I never positioned the conversation as being about who is exploiting YOU more though. You keep inserting your own personal interests as if it should be the compass when comparing the US and Russia, idk why.
  
  Again, it’s not about me, it’s about my class.
  
  And it’s not a “compass for comparing the US and Russia.” Compare them all you like, it doesn’t concern me. What does concern me are, you know, my class interests. If you want to ask me to set aside my own interests in favor of your opinions about morality, then you have to make the case for why I should.
  
  “We should abandon it because it’s going to be abandoned anyway” is circular logic nonsense.
  
  No, it’s seeing the writing on the wall. I don’t control public opinion, I can’t change the fact that people are losing and will continue to lose interest in Ukraine, that’s just a fact of life. And given that that’s going to happen, the best thing to do is to cut losses as soon as possible.
  
  The point should be people realizing that it’s best, even just for their own self-interest, for Ukraine to win.
  
  Then make the case, because you haven’t. All you’ve done is talk about how they’re the bad guys and pulled out an unrelated example from 80 years ago that’s resulted in disaster every time it’s been used as an example.
  
  You have no idea if supporting or surrendering would result in more or less deaths.
  
  Of course I do. I mean, to the extent that it’s possible to predict any events. It’s the deaths from surrendering versus the deaths from surrendering plus the deaths from however long the war keeps going.
  
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  - zenitsu@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    
    “People persue their own interests” is not a “hyper-cynical teenage view” lmao.
    
    pretending that everyone does this to the same extent is what makes it a hyper-cynical teenage view.
    
    my class interests
    
    spare me the tankie cringe
    
    If you want to ask me to set aside my own interests in favor of your opinions about morality
    
    If I’m just comparing how shit the Russian gov is vs the US gov, your interests aren’t relevant in the first place.
    
    Then make the case, because you haven’t. All you’ve done is talk about how they’re the bad guys and pulled out an unrelated example from 80 years ago that’s resulted in disaster every time it’s been used as an example.
    
    Do you live under a fucking rock? Do you need it explained to you why failing to stand up to this invasion might encourage others (like China->Taiwan)? Why stability/security in the West/World is vital for prosperity and won’t be possible unless Russia is defeated, given that they’ve spent most of the time under this regime by being raping & pillaging shits?
    
    Of course I do. I mean, to the extent that it’s possible to predict any events. It’s the deaths from surrendering versus the deaths from surrendering plus the deaths from however long the war keeps going.
    
    Hubris? Yet you think it was super difficult to predict Trumps relationship to Project 2025 lmao. Tell me, how do you know that supporting Ukraine properly doesn’t result in Russia’s defeat in, say another year or that surrendering them doesn’t result in death camps all over Ukraine for years? Fuck off with your “off course I do”. Now go back to reading whatever tankie trash that’s been rotting your brain as you’re clearly only interested in bad faith debate and juggling semantics.
    
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    Objection@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    
    my class interests
    
    spare me the tankie cringe
    
    Lmao. Even just talking about class is tankie, apparently.
    
    If I’m just comparing how shit the Russian gov is vs the US gov, your interests aren’t relevant in the first place.
    
    I’m not, and that wasn’t what the conversation was about.
    
    Why stability/security in the West/World is vital for prosperity and won’t be possible unless Russia is defeated
    
    “Defeating Russia” sounds extremely destabilizing. Do you genuinely want to eliminate the country through military force? That’s completely insane, they’re a nuclear power, you’ll end all life on earth. There will be no “security” “stability” or “prosperity” in a nuclear wasteland.
    
    So possibility A is a nuclear wasteland, possibility B is just letting them have the country and going on with our lives. I’ll take option B, thanks.
    
    Yet you think it was super difficult to predict Trumps relationship to Project 2025 lmao.
    
    Never said this, you’re lying. What I said was that it was difficult to convince voters to connect Project 2025 to Trump.
    
    I’ll forgive your lie because it seems like you’re genuinely incapable of distinguishing between those two proposition, but if you continue lying about what I said, I’m walking away. Lies are a pet peeve.
    
    Tell me, how do you know that supporting Ukraine properly doesn’t result in Russia’s defeat in, say another year
    
    Because of my assessment of the situation. It’s a stalemate, there’s no realistic possibility of them reclaiming all their lost territory in the next year.
    
    or that surrendering them doesn’t result in death camps all over Ukraine for years?
    
    How do I know Ukraine winning wouldn’t result in death camps all over Ukraine for years?
    
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